Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:42 pm

The Scientific and Physicalist view is that Consciousness is somehow located in the Neurons. It is a reasonable assumption given that Conscious Activity is Correlated with Neural Activity. But Science has no Theory, Hypothesis or even a Speculation about how Consciousness could be in the Neurons. Science has not been able to show for example, how something like the Experience of Redness is some kind of effect of Neural Activity. In fact, the more you think about the Redness Experience and then think about Neural Activity, the less likely it seems that the Redness Experience is actually some sort of Neural Activity. Science has tried in vain for a hundred years to figure this out. If the Experience of Redness actually was in the Neurons, Science would have had a lot to say about it by now. Something has got to be wrong with their perspective on the problem.

The Inter Mind Model (http://TheInterMind.com) can accommodate Consciousness as being in the Neurons, but it can also accommodate other concepts of Consciousness. The Inter Mind Model is structurally a Connection Model, in the sense that the Physical Mind (PM) is connected to the Inter Mind (IM) which is connected to the Conscious Mind (CM). These Connections might be conceptual where all three Minds are actually in the Neurons. But these Connections might have more reality to them where the PM, the IM, and the CM are separate things. I will Speculate that the situation is more like the latter than the former. In that case the PM, which is in Physical Space (PSp), uses the IM to create a Connection to the CM, which is in Conscious Space (CSp). The important perspective change here is that the PM is Connected to the CM, rather than assuming that the PM contains the CM as part of the PM. This allows the CM to be a thing in itself existing in it’s own CSp.

The inability of Science to solve the problem of Consciousness is the main driver for looking at other perspectives. Insisting that Consciousness is in the Neurons and is just some artifact of Neural Activity is getting us nowhere. Not only is Science unable to Explain Consciousness as Neural Activity, it is also unable to provide the first clue as to what something like the Experience of Redness actually is. Things like Redness, the Standard A Tone, and the Salty Taste, are Conscious Experiences. These kinds of Conscious Experiences are some sort of Phenomena that exist in the Reality of the Manifest Universe. They are in a Category of Phenomena that Science cannot explain. It is therefore Sensible and Logical to Speculate a place for them to exist. This of Course is CSp.

At the developmental level we now will have the PM developing in PSp and a separate CM developing in CSp. There is also an IM which is developing the Connections between the PM and the CM. The CM is no longer trapped in the PM which is in PSp. The CM now has a separate development and existence in CSp.

We can make some statements about things that are in the CM and things that are in the PM. For example, the CM is where the Experiences of Redness, the Standard A Tone, and the Salty Taste are located. The CM is also where the Conscious Self is located. Examples of things that are located in the PM are Memory, Pattern Recognition, Eye Convergence/Tracking, and Balance.

This separation provides a new perspective for thinking about the effect of Anesthesia. With the old perspective the reasoning was like this: The Neural Activity was halted and Consciousness seemed to also be halted so therefore Consciousness must be in the Neurons. With the new perspective the reasoning would be: The Neural Activity was halted and Consciousness seemed to be halted so therefore the Connection must have been interrupted. With this new perspective Consciousness itself was not halted but rather the Connection from the PM to the CM was interrupted. We don't know what the CM does during an interruption, but since Anesthesia can halt Memory operations the CM will not have any access to Memories of the Interruption after the Connection is reestablished.

It is time for Science to think more outside the Box with regard to Consciousness, and hopefully this Connection Perspective will inspire Research in new directions that might someday solve the Problem of Consciousness.

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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 27, 2019 8:35 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:42 pm
The inability of Science to solve the problem of Consciousness is the main driver for looking at other perspectives. Insisting that Consciousness is in the Neurons and is just some artifact of Neural Activity is getting us nowhere.
WHY is the problem of Consciousness a problem and for whom is it a problem?

Who asks such a question?

Why does there have to be a problem?

Can Steve look for what is being Steve in what is being Steve? ..that's basically what you are asking using literally thousands of words. The answer Steve is behind the word. Nonduality, the one question to all our answers.

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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:49 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:42 pm

This separation provides a new perspective for thinking about the effect of Anesthesia. With the old perspective the reasoning was like this: The Neural Activity was halted and Consciousness seemed to also be halted so therefore Consciousness must be in the Neurons. With the new perspective the reasoning would be: The Neural Activity was halted and Consciousness seemed to be halted so therefore the Connection must have been interrupted. With this new perspective Consciousness itself was not halted but rather the Connection from the PM to the CM was interrupted. We don't know what the CM does during an interruption, but since Anesthesia can halt Memory operations the CM will not have any access to Memories of the Interruption after the Connection is reestablished.
Interruption between different states of consciousness are due to the interaction of chemicals within the body and from outside the body such as psychoactive drugs that are then injected into the body creating certain altering effects of consciousness known and seen by consciousness itself which is never harmed or altered in any way shape or form by it's own appearances interacting with themselves.

Anesthesia - General anesthetics are a class of psychoactive drug used on people to block physical pain and other sensations.

Pain and all other sensory stimulation sensors are blocked via the coming together of certain chemicals in the brain, their interactions are just appearances within consciousness itself, these chemicals are just appearances interacting with other appearances and are what creates the interruption of the conscious stream of sensation and sensory input.. Consciousness itself is never interrupted or affected by it's own self creating effects, it remains ever untouched or harmed else if it was there would be no coming round after Anesthesia.
When the body dies at what we call death. Nothing has actually died, else no new baby or creature would ever come into existence. Everything that made up the body has no where to go, everything is always here, nothing goes nowhere. The body that is assumed to be dead has just slipped into the same state that is present during Anesthesia. The energy that makes up every assumed dead body still exists here and it's energy will thus wait for it's next transferal into a material object. This process is in constant flux of which there is no known beginning nor end in sight. . add infinitum, and is why consciousness can never look at itself.

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SteveKlinko
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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:29 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 9:49 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:42 pm

This separation provides a new perspective for thinking about the effect of Anesthesia. With the old perspective the reasoning was like this: The Neural Activity was halted and Consciousness seemed to also be halted so therefore Consciousness must be in the Neurons. With the new perspective the reasoning would be: The Neural Activity was halted and Consciousness seemed to be halted so therefore the Connection must have been interrupted. With this new perspective Consciousness itself was not halted but rather the Connection from the PM to the CM was interrupted. We don't know what the CM does during an interruption, but since Anesthesia can halt Memory operations the CM will not have any access to Memories of the Interruption after the Connection is reestablished.
Interruption between different states of consciousness are due to the interaction of chemicals within the body and from outside the body such as psychoactive drugs that are then injected into the body creating certain altering effects of consciousness known and seen by consciousness itself which is never harmed or altered in any way shape or form by it's own appearances interacting with themselves.

Anesthesia - General anesthetics are a class of psychoactive drug used on people to block physical pain and other sensations.

Pain and all other sensory stimulation sensors are blocked via the coming together of certain chemicals in the brain, their interactions are just appearances within consciousness itself, these chemicals are just appearances interacting with other appearances and are what creates the interruption of the conscious stream of sensation and sensory input.. Consciousness itself is never interrupted or affected by it's own self creating effects, it remains ever untouched or harmed else if it was there would be no coming round after Anesthesia.
When the body dies at what we call death. Nothing has actually died, else no new baby or creature would ever come into existence. Everything that made up the body has no where to go, everything is always here, nothing goes nowhere. The body that is assumed to be dead has just slipped into the same state that is present during Anesthesia. The energy that makes up every assumed dead body still exists here and it's energy will thus wait for it's next transferal into a material object. This process is in constant flux of which there is no known beginning nor end in sight. . add infinitum, and is why consciousness can never look at itself.

.
Could be, but I can't just believe in things.

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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:44 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:29 pm
Could be, but I can't just believe in things.
No belief, no thing to believe.

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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:22 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:44 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:29 pm
Could be, but I can't just believe in things.
No belief, no thing to believe.
Then you must have had an epiphany type of Experience where the Wisdom of the Universe poured into your Brain with the all Knowing Knowingness of Everything.

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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:09 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 2:22 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:44 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Aug 27, 2019 1:29 pm
Could be, but I can't just believe in things.
No belief, no thing to believe.
Then you must have had an epiphany type of Experience where the Wisdom of the Universe poured into your Brain with the all Knowing Knowingness of Everything.
There is no YOU because there is no other than YOU
You are the knowing that cannot be known. Knowing is not known by a person, a person is known by the only knowing there is and You are that knowing prior to the known being known else no known could ever be known. You are the known, and that which is known knows nothing.


“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing,
Love is knowing I am everything,
and between the two my life moves.”

― Nisargadatta Maharaj

.

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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:14 am

There's no objective answer to the hard question of consciousness, because objects have no consciousness. Consciousness is not an object, and yet knows every object. No known object has ever been seen or is known to have it's own consciousness. Objects can only be KNOWN within consciousness itself the only knowing there is, and there is nothing known outside of this knowing consciousness.

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SteveKlinko
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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:15 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:14 am
There's no objective answer to the hard question of consciousness, because objects have no consciousness. Consciousness is not an object, and yet knows every object. No known object has ever been seen or is known to have it's own consciousness. Objects can only be KNOWN within consciousness itself the only knowing there is, and there is nothing known outside of this knowing consciousness.

.
I could be wrong but I think I am outside this Knowing Consciousness, and I want to Know.

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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:22 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:15 pm
I could be wrong but I think I am outside this Knowing Consciousness, and I want to Know.
The one that wants to know doesn't exist, that one is already being known. Who or what is it that wants to know? who or what asks questions about it's reality? Notice a tree never asks questions about itself, or demands that it wants to know how or why it is a tree.

Steve, if you look at this from you're own sense of being only. You are consciousness right now. How can you step outside of yourself? it'd be like trying to lift yourself up by the bootstraps, or jump over you're own shadow...you would have to split in two into the knower and the known. You would be both the knower and the thing you know...the thing you know is a known conceptual object already within you, not outside of you.

You as consciousness cannot experience yourself as the object you know, because consciousness is not an object, objects don't have any consciousness of their own to experience with, all objects are contained in consciousness.

There is nothing outside of you're consciousness here...what exactly would be outside of you're own consciousness here?

Is there anything outside of knowing consciousness here? ..if so what?



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duszek
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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by duszek » Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:52 pm

Perhaps the concept of consciousness is misleading.

What is certain are conscious moves in the brain but an entity called consciousness is hard to imagine and to prove.

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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Aug 29, 2019 11:53 am

duszek wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:52 pm
Perhaps the concept of consciousness is misleading.

What is certain are conscious moves in the brain but an entity called consciousness is hard to imagine and to prove.
The above statement is knowledge as observed by consciousness itself in the form of words on a computer screen being read by consciousness itself.

Steve wants to know how to solve the hard problem of consciousness?

Question to Steve then is ...CAN the consciousness that is Steve hold the knowledge of what consciousness is and how it happens, and where it comes from in front of Steve to be examined ? and then Steve be able to say ''...hey, I got it now, I've got what I was looking for...this it it right here...'' ...or even say ''....look I am looking at consciousness...'' ?

Will that solve the hard problem of Consciousness?

If yes, then we are still back to square one. In finding what I am looking for, still does not solve the consciousness that is looking at what it has found to be the solved problem of consciousness. If I am looking at my own knowledge of how and why consciousness occurs then what is the consciousness looking at it's own consciousness and what does that seen and known consciousness in front of you up for examination actually look like ? in other words, can consciousness look at itself and describe itself to itself? can consciousness know and see itself?

.

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Lacewing
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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by Lacewing » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:32 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:42 pm
Based on the experiences and awareness of people all throughout human history, consciousness and awareness appear to span across more than the human/physical/mind state, yet are still very much impacted and limited by the human/physical state. As if the physical state is a radio receiver/transmitter with intermittent connections/reception to a broadcasting network. Therefore, we are examining the "radios" in trying to understand the "broadcast". ???

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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:11 pm

Lacewing wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:32 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:42 pm
Based on the experiences and awareness of people all throughout human history, consciousness and awareness appear to span across more than the human/physical/mind state, yet are still very much impacted and limited by the human/physical state. As if the physical state is a radio receiver/transmitter with intermittent connections/reception to a broadcasting network. Therefore, we are examining the "radios" in trying to understand the "broadcast". ???
It's a good analogy as long as you know that it is not really Radio Waves but rather some kind of Conscious Phenomenon that Science does not understand yet.

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Re: Emphasizing the Connection Perspective

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Aug 31, 2019 11:13 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:22 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:15 pm
I could be wrong but I think I am outside this Knowing Consciousness, and I want to Know.
The one that wants to know doesn't exist, that one is already being known. Who or what is it that wants to know? who or what asks questions about it's reality? Notice a tree never asks questions about itself, or demands that it wants to know how or why it is a tree.

Steve, if you look at this from you're own sense of being only. You are consciousness right now. How can you step outside of yourself? it'd be like trying to lift yourself up by the bootstraps, or jump over you're own shadow...you would have to split in two into the knower and the known. You would be both the knower and the thing you know...the thing you know is a known conceptual object already within you, not outside of you.

You as consciousness cannot experience yourself as the object you know, because consciousness is not an object, objects don't have any consciousness of their own to experience with, all objects are contained in consciousness.

There is nothing outside of you're consciousness here...what exactly would be outside of you're own consciousness here?

Is there anything outside of knowing consciousness here? ..if so what?



.
Almost everything is outside My knowing Consciousness.

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