## There is no emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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PTH
Posts: 85
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:58 pm

### Re: There is no emergence

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:10 pm
PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:07 pm And, in particular, what's missing is the understanding of the information.
Only the question requires understanding. Not information.
Information is that which reduces your uncertainty.

Is PTH conscious?

A. Yes.
B. No.

My uncertainty is 50%.

If you don't know what the question means information can't help you!

Does the universe exist?

Same problem!
01000001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01110111 01101000 01101001 01100011 01101000 00100000 01101101 01100101 01100001 01101110 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110010 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01101110 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 01110011 01110011 01100101 01110010 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110011 01101001 01101110 01100111 01101100 01100101 00100000 01100010 01101001 01110100 00100000 01101101 01100101 01100001 01101110 01110011 00100000 01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101110

(Alternatively, "All of which means there is more to it than your assertion that a single bit means something.")
Skepdick
Posts: 5263
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

### Re: There is no emergence

PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:19 pm 01000001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01110111 01101000 01101001 01100011 01101000 00100000 01101101 01100101 01100001 01101110 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110010 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01101110 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 01110011 01110011 01100101 01110010 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110011 01101001 01101110 01100111 01101100 01100101 00100000 01100010 01101001 01110100 00100000 01101101 01100101 01100001 01101110 01110011 00100000 01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101110

(Alternatively, "All of which means there is more to it than your assertion that a single bit means something.")
What you are demonstrating is just encoding. It is trivial to reverse if you know HOW.

And I know how: https://repl.it/repls/ClutteredMiniatur ... lesoftware

To a QUESTION that is posited to have a yes/no answer - a single bit means everything!

Does the universe exist?

So I shall repeat myself again: Only the question requires understanding. The question contains the meaning. The answer only contains the affirmation (or negation) as it may be.

If you ask a question you don't understand - you WILL get an answer you can't comprehend. What is the meaning of life, the universe and everything? 42!

And that is the answer you deserve if you expect anybody to give you a theory of meaning that is meaningful to you.
Last edited by Skepdick on Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Atla
Posts: 3066
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:27 am

### Re: There is no emergence

PTH wrote: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:43 am I do expect that it will boil down to the usual problem. On the one hand, if the physical world is a closed system, its hard (maybe impossible) to see how mind has any impact on it. On the other hand, our lives suggest that beliefs and the like have an impact on how people behave - there is a mental world.

Where does the mental world come from? I don't think anyone knows. We can speculate it emerges from the physical, in the way that some physical property might emerge from combining things with other physical properties. But we really haven't a clue.

At the same time, our cluelessness occurs in a context where things generally work. People generally understand what's been said to them. They can take a bus to work in the morning, with a reasonable expectation that things make the bus arrive at their bus stop and go to the expected location.

Some of that we can explain with emergence. But if we explained everything that can be explained by emergence, we'd still be left with stuff we can't explain.

Is that where we all are?
Not where we all are, but that's where pretty much all of Western philosophy is, and it's a dead end.

Strong emergence, the mental "emerging" out of the physical, is magical thinking. However, even believing that there is a physical and a mental, is magical thinking. Because these "two" are exactly one and the same. We just kinda see double.

(Ps. if you are suspecting that Skepdick doesn't understand what bits or information are, you are correct.)
Last edited by Atla on Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Skepdick
Posts: 5263
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

### Re: There is no emergence

Atla wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:35 pm (Ps. if you are suspecting that Skepdick doesn't understand what bits or information are, you are correct.)
I also suspect that you don't understand what "understanding" is.
Then again, this is a Philosophy forum. Nobody understands what anything IS.

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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

### Re: There is no emergence

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:37 pm
Atla wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:35 pm (Ps. if you are suspecting that Skepdick doesn't understand what bits or information are, you are correct.)
I also suspect that you don't understand what "understanding" is.
Then again, this is a Philosophy forum. Nobody understands what anything IS.

The mind always want's to know what it cannot know. That's the madness of the mind that minds.

Who is minding the store? the mind answers I AM.

There is nothing to know for that which wants to know is already known and that's all there is to understand.

ISness just is, there is no other isness than just this simple isness is-ing.

.
Posts: 8932
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

### Re: There is no emergence

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:05 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:04 pm Knowledge is known by consciousness the only knowing there is which cannot be measured.
Is knowledge known? That's a yes/no question!

Answering it requires 1 bit of information!

Is there a positive claim that cannot be posited as a yes/no question?

Questions can only arise to the sense of there being a separate self, there is no such self. The answer to a question is already within the question.

A separate self would be like a tree asking questions about itself. A tree doesn't ask questions about itself because it doesn't have one, it has no concept/knowledge about itself as a tree, because a tree is just a concept, and concepts inform the illusory nature of a concept.

Knowledge serves only to inform the illusory nature of reality, in the sense a known thing knows no thing because things don't know consciousness, consciousness knows things, the only knowing there is.

.

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seeds
Posts: 1025
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

### Re: There is no emergence

uwot wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:31 pm
Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:26 pm.Noumena cause phenomena.
Probably. But try telling an idealist.
That’s easy for an idealist to handle.

The idealist would simply state that mind is the arena (the living “emulsion,” so to speak) in which noumena and phenomena are suspended and perform their dance.
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Skepdick
Posts: 5263
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

### Re: There is no emergence

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:04 pm Knowledge is known.

Question: Is knowledge known?
Answer: Yes ( 1 bit of information )
Statement: Knowledge is known.

Unless, of course you are admitting to speaking without thinking.
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

### Re: There is no emergence

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:36 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:04 pm Knowledge is known.

Question: Is knowledge known?
Answer: Yes ( 1 bit of information )
Statement: Knowledge is known.

Unless, of course you are admitting to speaking without thinking.
I really am not following what you are trying to say to me, but I'll say this..

The one who asks the question has also the answer, else the question wouldn't even arise. There are no questions without answers, and vice versa.

There is an awareness of thought. Thought is known in the instant it arises one with the knowing, what that knowing is I have no idea because I am the one associating with the idea. I can only be the idea, not know what it is.

You can only know you ARE ... YOU cannot know what or why you are.

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uwot
Posts: 5068
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

### Re: There is no emergence

seeds wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:35 pm
uwot wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:31 pm
Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:26 pm.Noumena cause phenomena.
Probably. But try telling an idealist.
That’s easy for an idealist to handle.
Well seeds, me old china, everything is easy for anyone who has all the answers.
seeds wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:35 pmThe idealist would simply state that mind is the arena (the living “emulsion,” so to speak) in which noumena and phenomena are suspended and perform their dance.
Really depends on the idealist. Some will say there is no noumenon, it's all just phenomena. That's yer entry level idealist. Some theologians will claim ideas are in the mind of some god. Some scientists will claim there's some theoretically empirically verifiable cause of ideas other than the things which appear to be the source of the ideas - everything is a projection from the event horizon of a black hole springs to mind. I mean; how long ya got? Descartes was absolutely on the money when he said:
There is nothing so strange and so unbelievable that it has not been said by one philosopher or another.
Posts: 8932
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

### Re: There is no emergence

PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:19 pm 01000001 01101100 01101100 00100000 01101111 01100110 00100000 01110111 01101000 01101001 01100011 01101000 00100000 01101101 01100101 01100001 01101110 01110011 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100101 01110010 01100101 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110010 01100101 00100000 01110100 01101111 00100000 01101001 01110100 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01101110 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100001 01110011 01110011 01100101 01110010 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100001 00100000 01110011 01101001 01101110 01100111 01101100 01100101 00100000 01100010 01101001 01110100 00100000 01101101 01100101 01100001 01101110 01110011 00100000 01110011 01101111 01101101 01100101 01110100 01101000 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101110

(Alternatively, "All of which means there is more to it than your assertion that a single bit means something.")
When you ask someone to start counting, notice they always start with the number 1 superimposing upon that 1 as in 2 and 3 and 4 which is just the activity of the whole dividing itself by itself infinitely.

The 0 doesn't compute with the mind because the mind's only reference point is itself - so of course that would have to mean 1 for 0 has no meaning.

Skepdick
Posts: 5263
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

### Re: There is no emergence

Dontaskme wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:56 pm When you ask someone to start counting, notice they always start with the number 1 superimposing upon that 1 as in 2 and 3 and 4 which is just the activity of the whole dividing itself by itself infinitely.

The 0 doesn't compute with the mind because the mind's only reference point is itself - so of course that would have to mean 1 for 0 has no meaning.

Uhuh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-based_numbering
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

### Re: There is no emergence

Skepdick wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:58 pm
Dontaskme wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:56 pm When you ask someone to start counting, notice they always start with the number 1 superimposing upon that 1 as in 2 and 3 and 4 which is just the activity of the whole dividing itself by itself infinitely.

The 0 doesn't compute with the mind because the mind's only reference point is itself - so of course that would have to mean 1 for 0 has no meaning.

Uhuh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-based_numbering

You are the zero, you cannot count yourself in here, for that would be like consciousness showing up to it's own show. Or light trying to shine on itself, or the contents of consciousness looking for consciousness.

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seeds
Posts: 1025
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

### Re: There is no emergence

PTH wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:31 am
seeds wrote: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:50 pmNow, as I said earlier, if you can think of a better word than “emergence” to describe that specific process, then let’s hear it.
To be fair, it would help if there was a specific process.
I’ve been describing it.

The “process” is the awakening...

(the coming into being/the arising/the emergence/etc.)

...of our unique individualization of personal consciousness (our “I AM”) from a non-conscious substance.

I’m talking about a non-conscious substance (brain matter) that took approximately nine months to arrange (via DNA instructions) into just the right configuration before said awakening could take place.

Now, granted, it may not be a formally presented process that some preeminent neurologist might sign-off on, but surely we can all agree that at least what “appears” to be going on between brains and consciousness is something that the word “emergence” seems to fittingly describe. Yes? No? Maybe?
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seeds
Posts: 1025
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:31 pm

### Re: There is no emergence

seeds wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:35 pm That’s easy for an idealist to handle.
uwot wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:27 pm Well seeds, me old china, everything is easy for anyone who has all the answers.
Now, now, uwot (me old bean) there’s no need to be rude. We’re all just having a little fun here, sharing our delusions and flawed blatherings in this online virtual nuthouse.

Besides, if I had to preface everything I say in these threads with the Socratesian disclaimer of “btw, I know that I know nothing,” it would make my already too long posts even more tedious and ignorable than they already are.
seeds wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:35 pm The idealist would simply state that mind is the arena (the living “emulsion,” so to speak) in which noumena and phenomena are suspended and perform their dance.
uwot wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:27 pm Really depends on the idealist.
I just figured that it would be a given that the idealist being referenced in my reply would be the one typing the reply.
uwot wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:27 pm Some will say there is no noumenon, it's all just phenomena. That's yer entry level idealist.
Care to provide a few notable (linkable) examples as to who those particular idealists might be?
uwot wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:27 pm Some theologians will claim ideas are in the mind of some god.
Yes, we’ve all heard of Bishop Berkeley. And, of course, you don’t need to be a theologian to see the logic in that particular line of reasoning.
uwot wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:27 pm Some scientists will claim there's some theoretically empirically verifiable cause of ideas other than the things which appear to be the source of the ideas - everything is a projection from the event horizon of a black hole springs to mind.
Yes, which is now leading to a greater interest in the possible holographic-like nature of reality, of which (as you know) I am a super fan.
uwot wrote: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:27 pm I mean; how long ya got? Descartes was absolutely on the money when he said:
There is nothing so strange and so unbelievable that it has not been said by one philosopher or another.
Sounds a little like one of your other favorite “go to” quotes:

“Nothing is too ridiculous to be true, if it be consistent with the laws of nature...” Faraday

Was he talking about the “laws” that somehow magically came into existence via the blind and mindless meanderings of chance? (I’m sure that you know better than to get me started on that trail of rants. )

In the meantime, so as not to derail this thread, how do you feel about bahman’s claim of there being no such thing as “emergence” in any form or context?
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Last edited by seeds on Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.