Individualism vs. Collectivism

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Sculptor
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Sculptor » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:28 pm

On the 200th anniversary of the Peterloo Massacre, I have only one thing to say on this subject

"As if their own indignant Earth
Which gave the sons of England birth 140
Had felt their blood upon her brow,
And shuddering with a mother's throe

36
Had turnèd every drop of blood
By which her face had been bedewed
To an accent unwithstood,--
As if her heart had cried aloud:

37
`Men of England, heirs of Glory,
Heroes of unwritten story,
Nurslings of one mighty Mother,
Hopes of her, and one another; 150

38
`Rise like Lions after slumber
In unvanquishable number,
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you --
Ye are many -- they are few.

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RCSaunders
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by RCSaunders » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:25 am

Nick_A wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:24 pm
Jesus ... His individuality defeated death for humanity.
What? Nobody dies anymore? When did this happen? I'm pretty sure people are still dying around here, and as far as I can tell, are part of humanity. Perhaps Jesus' defeat of death only works for some of humanity. Is that right?

Nick_A
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Nick_A » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:42 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:32 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:24 pm
Jesus was a true individual...
In regard to having personal dependencies, yes. In regard to seeking approval from authorities, yes.

But for his disciples, his directions were often communitarian, not merely individualistic. The desert ascetics of the early centuries got that idea wrong. The point was not to "get out of" the world and become a hermit, the absolute individualist, but rather to function graciously in the context of society, being "in the world, but not of it." Individualism was limited to the idea of moral self-control; but interdependence, not independence, was the practice of the apostles and the early church.
You seem to be emphasizing exoteric Christianity concerned with what we DO.

Yes this is an important influence in society since it acts as a policeman for the benefit of society. However what makes Christianity great is its potential for transformation: the New Man from the old man. The evolution of what we ARE.

Exoteric Christianity will refer to the Prince of Peace but in reality Christ brings a sword

Matthew 10
34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of
household.’[c]
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
Not politically correct in the secular world which cannot distinguish the natural form the spiritual. But when we remember that natural man cannot understand spiritual man it is obvious that the awakening of spiritual man and the loss of attachments to natural man requires a psychological separation the recognition of which is intolerable for the secular world

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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Nick_A » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:56 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:25 am
Nick_A wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:24 pm
Jesus ... His individuality defeated death for humanity.
What? Nobody dies anymore? When did this happen? I'm pretty sure people are still dying around here, and as far as I can tell, are part of humanity. Perhaps Jesus' defeat of death only works for some of humanity. Is that right?
Yes Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. Unfortunately there are many dead people in society who are influential. Such people have a destructive influence on society so being dead the living person just lets the dead bury their dead.

Matthew 8:
18 When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake. 19 Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.”

20 Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.”

21 Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.”

22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.”

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:32 am

Nick_A wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:42 am
...the awakening of spiritual man and the loss of attachments to natural man requires a psychological separation the recognition of which is intolerable for the secular world.
Well, the process isn't described as an "awakening." In an "awakening," the potential is already in a person. It's described instead as a "rebirth," or a "being born from above." In other words, it's not just a new realization, but a new constitution, a new creation. It's all fine and dandy to get rid of "attachments": but if that's all one does, then one is the same old person, just with fewer things to be attached to.

And this fits with one thing you said earlier: it's not what we do, but what we are that is the problem. And it's what we are that has to change, not just what we do...or think. We need "a new creation," not just a mental awakening.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:34 am

Sculptor wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:28 pm
Ye are many -- they are few.
Yeah, Stalin said the same thing.

Then he engaged "the many" to line "the few" up, and shot them into ditches.

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RCSaunders
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by RCSaunders » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:49 am

Nick_A wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:56 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:25 am
Nick_A wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:24 pm
Jesus ... His individuality defeated death for humanity.
What? Nobody dies anymore? When did this happen? I'm pretty sure people are still dying around here, and as far as I can tell, are part of humanity. Perhaps Jesus' defeat of death only works for some of humanity. Is that right?
Yes Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. Unfortunately there are many dead people in society who are influential. Such people have a destructive influence on society so being dead the living person just lets the dead bury their dead.
I'm quite familiar with what the Bible says. My question was about what you said. Your quotes certainly didn't answer my question, so let me make it more precise.

My Bible says nothing about Jesus' individuality doing anything. I does speak about the death of Christ being a propitiation for sin and of that propitation being the basis of forgiveness of sin and the promise of eternal life.

So the question is, "did Jesus' death pay for all the sins of every human being forever, or only the sins of some?"

If you don't think the Bible teaches one of those views, you really have no idea what the Bible teaches.

Nick_A
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Nick_A » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:42 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:49 am
Nick_A wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:56 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:25 am

What? Nobody dies anymore? When did this happen? I'm pretty sure people are still dying around here, and as far as I can tell, are part of humanity. Perhaps Jesus' defeat of death only works for some of humanity. Is that right?
Yes Jesus said to let the dead bury their dead. Unfortunately there are many dead people in society who are influential. Such people have a destructive influence on society so being dead the living person just lets the dead bury their dead.
I'm quite familiar with what the Bible says. My question was about what you said. Your quotes certainly didn't answer my question, so let me make it more precise.

My Bible says nothing about Jesus' individuality doing anything. I does speak about the death of Christ being a propitiation for sin and of that propitation being the basis of forgiveness of sin and the promise of eternal life.

So the question is, "did Jesus' death pay for all the sins of every human being forever, or only the sins of some?"

If you don't think the Bible teaches one of those views, you really have no idea what the Bible teaches.
Obviously we have different understandings as to the meaning and purpose of Christianity. I don't believe in the personal God so there is nothing to appease. The following describes my beliefs. Christianity, became man made Christendom largely because of the adoption of the personal Hebrew God and becoming the religion of Rome
The historical "double stain" on the Church that Simone Weil denounces originates in the fact that Israel imposed on Christian believers the acceptance of the Old Testament and its almighty God, and that Rome chose Christianity as the religion of the Empire.[22] Despite its universal redemptive mission, the Church became from its very beginnings heir of Jewish nationalism and of the totalitarianism inherent in Imperial Rome. As the spiritual locus in which both traditions of power displaced the religion of powerless slaves, Christianity became the actual negation of its own foundational leitmotiv: the self-annulment of divine omnipotence by the godly act of kenosis or self-abasement.
Jesus sacrifice opened the path to to the kingdom for those who could follow with the help of the Holy Spirit. Jesus" sacrifice made the presence of the Holy Spirit possible. No pissed off God was appeased. The struggle between our higher and lower natures during the Crucifixion invited the Holy Spirit to reconcile it at a higher level of reality. This reconciliation leads to human conscious potential

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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Nick_A » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:07 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:32 am
Nick_A wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:42 am
...the awakening of spiritual man and the loss of attachments to natural man requires a psychological separation the recognition of which is intolerable for the secular world.
Well, the process isn't described as an "awakening." In an "awakening," the potential is already in a person. It's described instead as a "rebirth," or a "being born from above." In other words, it's not just a new realization, but a new constitution, a new creation. It's all fine and dandy to get rid of "attachments": but if that's all one does, then one is the same old person, just with fewer things to be attached to.

And this fits with one thing you said earlier: it's not what we do, but what we are that is the problem. And it's what we are that has to change, not just what we do...or think. We need "a new creation," not just a mental awakening.
I know through personal revelation that being born again is the experience of a new perspective I've heard it described as the third dimension of thought. It is like the mind expands from dualism into a triune experience.

Dualism celebrates the body as the source of human meaning and purpose. However being born again connects us with a new source of meaning. How do you understand what is meant by "the renewing of your mind?"
12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:33 am

Nick_A wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:07 am
...being born again is the experience of a new perspective...
I think you'll find that, in John 3, for example, it's a good deal more than that. One can get one's own "new perspective." But this is a birth from God, one distinct from the first. It's not something that comes with the first birth, as Nicodemus rightly understands.

I think the questions on which we may be differing is source and depth of the required transformation. It sounds to me (and forgive me if I read this wrongly) that you mean simply a change of mind initiated by the individual himself or herself. It seems to me the Biblical view is that more is required...not just a new attitude, but a reconstitution of being by the actual intervention of God: hence, the term "new birth," rather than, say, "new perspective."
How do you understand what is meant by "the renewing of your mind?"
Ah. Romans 12.

I'm fine with that. I have some ideas. But what are you thinking it means?

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RCSaunders
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by RCSaunders » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:26 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:42 am
Obviously we have different understandings as to the meaning and purpose of Christianity. I don't believe in the personal God so there is nothing to appease.
All religion and mysticism is nonsense, and most of it is not only wrong, but dangerous. But most people do embrace some form of superstition or another and I have found it interesting to study most of those superstitions.

However, I think it is dishonest to claim adherence to a specific superstition, such as Christianity, and to quote its accepted authority, the Bible, and then contradict both the teachings of that religion and what the Bible actually says. One is certainly free to make up their own religion which is a mishmash of other religions (it's called syncretism), but to claim that monstrosity is one of the religions one has borrowed from is deceitful.

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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by RCSaunders » Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:33 am
Nick_A wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:07 am
...being born again is the experience of a new perspective...
I think you'll find that, in John 3, for example, it's a good deal more than that. One can get one's own "new perspective." But this is a birth from God, one distinct from the first. It's not something that comes with the first birth, as Nicodemus rightly understands.
Immanuel, you and Nick_a are discussing entirely different things. Nick says he does not believe in a personal God but then claims the Bible, which he either does not understand or believe, as authority. You obviously do understand what the Bible says.

I personally do not agree with either of you, but you are, at least, honest. Beware of the deceit of those who claim to believe what you believe to drag you into their own superstitions.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:46 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:52 pm
Immanuel, you and Nick_a are discussing entirely different things. Nick says he does not believe in a personal God but then claims the Bible, which he either does not understand or believe, as authority. You obviously do understand what the Bible says.

I personally do not agree with either of you, but you are, at least, honest. Beware of the deceit of those who claim to believe what you believe to drag you into their own superstitions.
Aw, I think you're being a bit hard on Nick, RC. People come from all sorts of places, and I don't mind talking with somebody who has views different from mine, whether on "religion" or on anti-"religion." In fact, it was in the hope of having those sorts of conversations I joined this discussion in the first place, so I appreciate the kind words and the cautionary note, but I'm not really concerned.

Thanks, though.

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Sculptor
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Sculptor » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:56 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:34 am
Sculptor wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:28 pm
Ye are many -- they are few.
Yeah, Stalin said the same thing.

Then he engaged "the many" to line "the few" up, and shot them into ditches.
Nope he did not.
Wanker.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Individualism vs. Collectivism

Post by Immanuel Can » Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:04 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:56 pm
Nope he did not.
Katyn. Kulaks.

Yes, yes, he did.

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