Cartesian dualism

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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f12hte
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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by f12hte » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:34 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Jul 07, 2019 1:22 pm
When two surfaces rub or come together (make contact) a sensation is born/known...a (known) is a concept, the concept is known via the awareness of the conception taking place within awareness itself.
I think that the core of what you are trying to say, somehow, lies in this quoted sentence. But it is a bit too poofy for me to just let it alone.

A sensation is a group of electrical potentials. It is initiated when sense organs (inner ear hair, retinal cell, skin heat sensor etc) are stimulated. The electrical potentials travel to the brain via nerve fibers. The brain has many memories of previous sensory experiences, stored in a way that allow the memory to be activated back into its original electrical potentials by the arrival of new electrical potentials (see Eric Kandel's model of long term memory). The comparison of the current sensation with memories of other, remembered sensations, imparts meaning to the new sensation and is instrumental in formulating the response to the stimulus.

Objects in the environment which send similar patterns of body sensor activation can become mental categories. So Rover the bloodhound and Clifford the big red dog send a similar pattern to the brain, and a category "dog" is born, based on those similar patterns of sensor firings.

Awareness is driven by volition. We are aware of what we need to be aware of at any given moment, and nothing else. Volition is either innate, as in the felt need in all living things to remain alive, or it is learned.
Having tasted chocolate ice cream, I am always on the lookout for it, and I will be aware when it is in my environment. So I have a learned a volition towards chocolate ice cream.

The environment, as it is, can not be known. Some say it's a soup of electrons and quarks, whatever that means. Some say its all vibrating strings. Whatever it is, it certainly seems qualitatively different from our conscious view of the environment. Just what is out there stimulating our body sensors. We'll never know.
Perhaps there's nothing out there and our body sensors fire spontaneously and randomly to create our mental world.

What we do know is the conscious environment, and that is not made of solids liquids and gases, but it is made of relationships. Relationships are learned through their similar electrical potential patterns.

Consciousness can be modeled as a deterministic chaotic system. We are born and we die. What happens in between depends totally on what the environment throws at the living being. The environment takes the raw material of the living being, with its capacity to remember and to compare, and builds our conscious world out of it. Each new thing is learned in the terms of things we already know, via analogy. Each new experience is determined by previous experience.

Is that a monistic or dualistic view of reality? Does it really make any difference what we call it?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:44 am

f12hte wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:34 pm
Awareness is driven by volition.
Awareness (latent) free will.

Intention (kinetic) consciousness is born.

Intention is the rider of the will.

.

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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:03 am

f12hte wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:34 pm

Is that a monistic or dualistic view of reality? Does it really make any difference what we call it?
There is no dualist view of reality, all views are known by nondual observing which is not-known, hence any view is a fictional representation of the unknown nondual actual present.
Hence many authors appear but there is only one reader. Many views appear but there is only one observer.

A conceptual known view is a representation and not what reality actually is..so any conception of reality will be a fictional story, a conceptual descriptive overlay, aka the play of consciousness.

When awareness (latent) knows sensation (kinetic) consciousness is born (mind)

Views (mental concepts) are many. The observer is ONE.

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f12hte
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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by f12hte » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:32 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:03 am
f12hte wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:34 pm

Is that a monistic or dualistic view of reality? Does it really make any difference what we call it?


There is no dualist view of reality, all views are known by nondual observing which is not-known, hence any view is a fictional representation of the unknown nondual actual present.

Hence many authors appear but there is only one reader. Many views appear but there is only one observer.
...
Views (mental concepts) are many. The observer is ONE.
Are you saying that each instance of consciousness is a port onto the non-dual, unknown observer? So what would that be like? Maybe a single consciousness which is able to observe itself from many different individual perspectives? What do you make of The Global Consciousness Project at Princeton?

Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:03 am
A conceptual known view is a representation and not what reality actually is..so any conception of reality will be a fictional story, a conceptual descriptive overlay, aka the play of consciousness.
How does a conceptual known view become known? Isn't it through comparison of repeated occurrences of the unknown over time? Or do you see concepts as pre-existing in Plato's world of perfect forms or something like that?
Dontaskme wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:03 am
When awareness (latent) knows sensation (kinetic) consciousness is born (mind)

So if total sensory deprivation were possible, then consciousness would cease? I would say that it takes more to impart meaning to consciousness. And that' more' would be consciousness's sussing out relationships between current experience and past experience. I would say that relationships are the stuff of consciousness. And I would say there is more to awareness because latent awareness lacks intent. Thus we have had disagreements as to whether infant circumcision causes pain or not. If you can't relate to an event, are you really conscious of that event? Perhaps a rudimentary pre-consciousness, where a group of action potentials independently lead directly to an avoidance volition in support of life's prime directive; to survive. I sometimes wonder if the modis of anesthesia is to segregate current and past experience? Anesthetized patients pose a movement danger during surgery unless they are given a paralyzing drug. Are anesthetized patients conscious, but incapable of relating to the experience of pain ?

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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Aug 09, 2019 8:51 am

f12hte wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:32 pm

Are you saying that each instance of consciousness is a port onto the non-dual, unknown observer?
The individual mind is an inseparable appearance of the one mind in contact with itself only. Known as a physical and non-physical duality. There is no division between the seer and the seen, the touched and the toucher...etc
Duality is one seamless movement within the non-dual observer which never moves.
f12hte wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:32 pm
What do you make of The Global Consciousness Project at Princeton?
I don't know haven't looked at it yet.
f12hte wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:32 pm
So if total sensory deprivation were possible, then consciousness would cease?
No, consciousness cannot cease, only the senses experienced by consciousness would cease as those senses are shut down by the interaction of certain chemicals in the body which are only ever temporal appearances in consciousness and not consciousness itself, as nothing can alter the state of consciousness. Altered states are appearances, aka experiences and sensation of consciousness, not consciousness itself which cannot be an experience or a sensation.
f12hte wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:32 pm
Are anesthetized patients conscious, but incapable of relating to the experience of pain ?
No person is conscious because consciousness is all there is, was and ever will be.

.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by SteveKlinko » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:19 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 4:46 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 3:21 pm
Of course I think the Gap does exist. How can the Knower be the Known? It may very well be true, but I need Explanations. Just saying the words does not satisfy me. Like I always say I'm still thinking about this Oneness thing ...
Thinking about oneness creates 'otherness' where there is none. Thinking creates a gulf between the knower and the known, but it's an imaginary split. So to close this illusory gap is to see that the knower and known are only ever one in the instantaneous moment because the thought is the thinker, and the thinker is the thought. It works both ways, it's a two way mirror and the mirror is ONE it has no gap or divide. Knower cannot exist without the known,they are mutually co-dependant, like conjoined twins, inseparable, ONLY appearing as if split ..the split is only a reflection of the one, of itself of course, in the same context there is no shadow without the sun. The shadow owes it's very existence to the sun, but the shadow has no existence of it's own because the shadow is the sun which does not require it's own shadow to be what it is, it's totally self shining.
What comes from one can only be one, not two. You cannot get two from what will always be one. One divided will always be divided by itself...so one is two and one is three and one is four...or one is this and that and the other metaphysically speaking.


Believing there is a gap is what creates the gap in the first place. Drop the belief and see there is no gap except the belief. Notice when all beliefs in this that and the other cease, you still exist whether you believe anything or not. Now all you've got to notice is that you exist even when you are not thinking about existing like in deep dreamless sleep when you exist without knowing you exist. There is no discontinuity in consciousness beingness aka the oneness that is all there is was and ever will be infinitely for eternity.

There is no you because there is no other than you.



.
Can't drop the Gap because the Gap is really there. What you say may be true but I don't understand it.

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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:50 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:19 pm
Can't drop the Gap because the Gap is really there. What you say may be true but I don't understand it.
No the gap is not there.

There is only here. Now here.

Notice there is a gap between now and here.. now here would not mean jack all if joined together because you'd only get NOWHERE. .

Gaps are necessary so that there is an understanding of the words we are reading. We can only understand words Steve.
Who is reading? the mind will answer I AM reading, so are the words I and AM reading? do words read themselves? Can a word know itself?

Imagine a world without words, or space between two objects which is just another word.

Do you need a word in your life to BE?

The only gap is the space between two thoughts, or between two words.

You'll see that there is nothing there in a gap, and that's it's an empty space. So what is going to explain this empty space aka gap?

What are words and thought? ... I have no idea, except what the word/thought informs me.



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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:56 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:50 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 11, 2019 12:19 pm
Can't drop the Gap because the Gap is really there. What you say may be true but I don't understand it.
No the gap is not there.

There is only here. Now here.

Notice there is a gap between now and here.. now here would not mean jack all if joined together because you'd only get NOWHERE. .

Gaps are necessary so that there is an understanding of the words we are reading. We can only understand words Steve.
Who is reading? the mind will answer I AM reading, so are the words I and AM reading? do words read themselves? Can a word know itself?

Imagine a world without words, or space between two objects which is just another word.

Do you need a word in your life to BE?

The only gap is the space between two thoughts, or between two words.

You'll see that there is nothing there in a gap, and that's it's an empty space. So what is going to explain this empty space aka gap?

What are words and thought? ... I have no idea, except what the word/thought informs me.



.
The Explanatory Gaps that I talk about have nothing to do with words. The Explanatory Gap between Neural Activity and Conscious Activity is the most difficult problem in Brain Science that there is today. There just are no good Scientific theories. You say everything is Consciousness and the Physicalists say everything is Physical. These are both Oneness theories. Your theory or the Physicalist theory may be true but they both continue to ring hollow for me. I need more to work with before I will be able to accept either of these oneness theories.

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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:00 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:56 pm
The Explanatory Gaps that I talk about have nothing to do with words. The Explanatory Gap between Neural Activity and Conscious Activity is the most difficult problem in Brain Science that there is today.
Explanations require words to make them known.

Words are sound.

What is sound ?

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:56 pm
Your theory or the Physicalist theory may be true but they both continue to ring hollow for me. I need more to work with before I will be able to accept either of these oneness theories.
That's because all knowledge is hollow.

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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:34 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:00 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:56 pm
The Explanatory Gaps that I talk about have nothing to do with words. The Explanatory Gap between Neural Activity and Conscious Activity is the most difficult problem in Brain Science that there is today.
Explanations require words to make them known.

Words are sound.

What is sound ?

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:56 pm
Your theory or the Physicalist theory may be true but they both continue to ring hollow for me. I need more to work with before I will be able to accept either of these oneness theories.
That's because all knowledge is hollow.

.
But Words are not Sound. You don't need Words to Experience a Sound. No doubt animals can have an Experience of Sound without any Words. Sound is a pure Conscious Mind Experience that can only be Experienced. Sound in fact can not be described by Words. Just like Redness cannot be described by Words.

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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:57 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:34 pm
But Words are not Sound. You don't need Words to Experience a Sound. No doubt animals can have an Experience of Sound without any Words. Sound is a pure Conscious Mind Experience that can only be Experienced. Sound in fact can not be described by Words. Just like Redness cannot be described by Words.
Words are sound. How can you know you have experienced sound without describing the sound by labeling the experience with the word sound?

All experience is built upon knowledge. Knowledge is built of words and words are sound heard as words.

To experience a known concept requires a knower. There is no experience of any thing known without the awareness of the thing known.
The word experience informs you that experiencing is being experienced.

Animals do not describe their reality, nor do they question it, neither do they have answers to what's how's or why's
So why do you think the human can question their existence?

Questions can only arise to the sense of a separate self, where there isn't one.

How does a NA become a CE is a mute question that can never be answered for who will answer it? for these are just words that no one ever wrote.

It would be like the contents of consciousness trying to figure out what is consciousness.

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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:10 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:34 pm
But Words are not Sound. You don't need Words to Experience a Sound. No doubt animals can have an Experience of Sound without any Words. Sound is a pure Conscious Mind Experience that can only be Experienced. Sound in fact can not be described by Words. Just like Redness cannot be described by Words.
To know experience is to imagine it, no one imagines the human story. And that's what makes it divine and sacred known only to itself one without a second.

In the timeless now, real life spontaneously transforms itself. In illusory time, sounds appear as words and words as an illusory story. The human storyteller, the mind is not present in the timeless, divine Now. His story "I do this and you do that ..." is not real and yet it exists, albeit illusory. As and through the "word" is how the divine appears as a human, only through the word.

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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:48 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:34 pm
You don't need Words to Experience a Sound.
I'd like to address this part again Steve. And remember, nothing I say is absolute, I'm merely sharing my own personal direct experience of how I view reality from here.

There is no experience of sound or any other conceptual known experience without a known knower/experiencer.
There is no known entity other than what is already immediately present right now one without a second.

For me, sound being inseparable from the hearing instrument are both present simultaneously in the same instantaneous now here.

Neither the sound nor the instrument of hearing (ear) is experiencing the experience of sound, there is just sound appearing straight out of the eternal void which is the only experiencer. Therefore, knowing experience is the experience of no thing experiencing itself. What comes from the void is only ever the void. From source to source.

So how is all this information known?

It's known as sound converts to words heard with attached meaning as those words are heard as the myriad of different expressions they present themselves via the mind, and those words then take on a whole separate life form of their own creating an illusory separation within the void itself that is already always present one without a second. What the mind does, is it artificially creates a split within it's totality, where the unknown becomes known. Only where there is language is anything known about a separate self, because words are dual by nature..so knowledge can only inform the illusory nature of their knower which is never actually located except in the word itself which is born of sound which can be heard anywhere and everywhere because the body of the one is everywhere at once appearing as this sound and light show that is reality.
There is no known actual location of the knower, the knower is only and ever here right now one with the knowing.There is nowhere else other than right here now, the zero point of infinity. You are infinity now.

Without the use of words, how would the human even know it exists? truth is there is no human except the word, there is only the concept human known by the only knowing there is here now as this totality, aka everything and not-a-thing...how does not-a-thing know it is having the experience of some-thing without words informing it of such?

Life knows without knowing, because it's everything and nothing. To know you know requires knowledge, which is born of sound heard as words in this conception.

No conception of a separate self ever took place, because a self can only arise in the concept known, and that which is known can know nothing of it's existence because it's just a word.

And a word is sound...and sound is only ever silence sounding. There is no separate silence anywhere in reality whatsoever.

Even silence is a word. No word knows it is a word, because there is nothing outside of language / knowledge known.



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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:32 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:10 pm
I insist that I can Experience Sound without describing it with Words. In fact it is not true that you can even actually describe a Sound with Words. Describe the Experience of the Standard A Tone with Words. The same is true for all Sensory Experiences like the Experience of Redness for example. But the process of Hearing is a chain of Phenomena that happen sequentially. First there is the Physical Sound Wave consisting of Pressure Waves then after the Ear processes the Physical Sound there is Neural Activity in the Auditory areas and finally there is an Experience of Sound in the Conscious Mind. These are three separate and separable Phenomena. 1) the Pressure Wave, 2) the Neural Activity, 3) the Experience. The Experience implies an Experiencer which could be rolled into 3.

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Re: Cartesian dualism

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:07 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 3:32 pm
I insist that I can Experience Sound without describing it with Words. In fact it is not true that you can even actually describe a Sound with Words. Describe the Experience of the Standard A Tone with Words.
Steve, I'm talking about the actual 'Knower' of the experience of sound. I'm not talking about describing the experience of sound which would require knowledge which is just sound heard as words.

Maybe I'm not explaining this very well, it's difficult, but I'll keep trying.
Forget about describing an experience. I'm asking how is having an experience known, and by whom or what?.. what knows it is having the experience of sound?
You say I ...but isn't I just another word? albeit a one lettered word.

If you insist on being able to experience sound without descibing it in words, then tell me without using words how it is known that there is the experience of sound ?...just what is it that KNOWS it is experiencing the experience of sound? can it be possible to know who or what is experiencing sound without the knowledge of said experience present? so what or who is knowing the knowledge of the said experience? and how could it be known without knowledge which is sound heard as words.

'' I insist that I can Experience Sound without describing it with Words '' is still a CLAIM.

What is knowing it is making a claim to know it is experiencing sound without having to describe it in words?

This goes deeper than just saying the ''I'' knows, and that's bascially all I'm trying to get at here.

Thanks for your patience.

.

.

PS, remember, animals don't possess knowledge that is unique to the human which is just another form of animal, if the other animals did possess knowledge, then surely they would be plotting to do all kinds of dastardly deeds. Then we'd really need to be watching our backs.

Animals know without knowing they know, so what is this knowledge that human animals seem to possess that other animals don't have. If everything in life is functioning without a mind that knows that it knows,then what is this mind that knows itself that is unique to human? isn't that just knowledge, aka sound heard as words?

.

Notice also that animals are always listening to sound, and is how they navigate and understand their world and is how they learn to survive in it.

.

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