Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Skepdick
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by Skepdick » Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:58 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:05 pm
When it comes to what we know about Conscious Experience at this point in time we find that Dualism is where Science is stuck at. Neural Activity happens and then a Conscious Experience happens.
This is not science's fault. By virtue of asking for an explanation dualism is born. The two categories that emerge are the category of causes, and the category of effects.

Consciousness it the effect. You are seeking for a cause.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:05 pm
These are two separate Categories of Phenomenon and although the two are connected in some way Science has no Explanation for that connection. What's worse is that the Experience does not fit into any known Category of Scientific Phenomenon.
Because experience is the foundation of science. EXPERiment comes from EXPERience.

Anyway. Good luck with your confusion.

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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:07 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:58 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:05 pm
When it comes to what we know about Conscious Experience at this point in time we find that Dualism is where Science is stuck at. Neural Activity happens and then a Conscious Experience happens.
This is not science's fault. By virtue of asking for an explanation dualism is born. The two categories that emerge are the category of causes, and the category of effects.

Consciousness it the effect. You are seeking for a cause.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:05 pm
These are two separate Categories of Phenomenon and although the two are connected in some way Science has no Explanation for that connection. What's worse is that the Experience does not fit into any known Category of Scientific Phenomenon.
Because experience is the foundation of science. EXPERiment comes from EXPERience.

Anyway. Good luck with your confusion.
Thank You. We are all Confused with regard to Consciousness. If you think you are not Confused then you are Confused and Deluded.

Skepdick
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by Skepdick » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:08 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:07 pm
Thank You. We are all Confused with regard to Consciousness. If you think you are not Confused then you are Confused and Deluded.
Well, what chance do I stand then?

I was going to say "I don't know anything about consciousness because it's just a word. Like truth. It doesn't matter what it is if you know how to use it.", but I guess my confusion and delusion prevents me from doing so.

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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:27 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:08 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:07 pm
Thank You. We are all Confused with regard to Consciousness. If you think you are not Confused then you are Confused and Deluded.
Well, what chance do I stand then?

I was going to say "I don't know anything about consciousness because it's just a word. Like truth. It doesn't matter what it is if you know how to use it.", but I guess my confusion and delusion prevents me from doing so.
If you think Consciousness is just a word like Truth then you are correct that you don't stand a chance of ever understanding anything.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:03 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:27 pm
If you think Consciousness is just a word like Truth then you are correct that you don't stand a chance of ever understanding anything.
Only words are understood, but words do not understand. The word consciousness is not concious.
It's a divine contradictory paradox.

Imagine a reality without known concepts aka langauge aka knowledge, aka words.

That's all that needs to be understood, the idea that there is nothing to understand except in this concept-i-on.

The mind plays around with it's mind made artificially constructed concepts because what can the mind do with the no thing that it really is? how can that which is not concious understand what it is to be conscious?

Reality will never make sense to the sense of I exist, only when that sense of I exist gets out of it's own way will it become clear and know actual self, in that the self doesn't need to show up to it's own show. This has been known for eons by nondualists.

If you can know you exist, then you can also know you don't exist....ultimately, there is no known knower.



.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:21 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:03 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:27 pm
If you think Consciousness is just a word like Truth then you are correct that you don't stand a chance of ever understanding anything.
Only words are understood, but words do not understand. The word consciousness is not concious.
It's a divine contradictory paradox.

Imagine a reality without known concepts aka langauge aka knowledge, aka words.

That's all that needs to be understood, the idea that there is nothing to understand except in this concept-i-on.

The mind plays around with it's mind made artificially constructed concepts because what can the mind do with the no thing that it really is? how can that which is not concious understand what it is to be conscious?

Reality will never make sense to the sense of I exist, only when that sense of I exist gets out of it's own way will it become clear and know actual self, in that the self doesn't need to show up to it's own show. This has been known for eons by nondualists.

If you can know you exist, then you can also know you don't exist....ultimately, there is no known knower.



.
I can know I exist only if I exist. If I don't exist then I won't be able to know I don't exist.

uwot
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by uwot » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:27 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:53 am
...as a side note, the 800lb Gorilla in the room is the Conscious Self that does the Experiencing of Redness.
Well yeah. Whatever consciousness is, it is indistinguishable from a miracle. Given the evident association with physical brains, my hunch is that consciousness is, in effect, the 'field' generated by the largely electromagnetic activity; a bit like light is the product of a lightbulb. The interesting result of that analogy is that if a lightbulb 'dies', the light it created carries on traveling through the universe, more or less forever. Who knows? Maybe being dead is just the start.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:34 pm

uwot wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:27 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:53 am
...as a side note, the 800lb Gorilla in the room is the Conscious Self that does the Experiencing of Redness.
Well yeah. Whatever consciousness is, it is indistinguishable from a miracle. Given the evident association with physical brains, my hunch is that consciousness is, in effect, the 'field' generated by the largely electromagnetic activity; a bit like light is the product of a lightbulb. The interesting result of that analogy is that if a lightbulb 'dies', the light it created carries on traveling through the universe, more or less forever. Who knows? Maybe being dead is just the start.
Good analogy. We just don't know yet so all Speculations are on the table. I just try to keep pushing against people that think we do know everything.

uwot
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by uwot » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:52 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:34 pm
I just try to keep pushing against people that think we do know everything.
Quite right too. Sorta think I should fell sorry for those who are so mental they think they know the all answers, or are too stupid to entertain more than one possibility, but fuck it; they're either nutters or idiots.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:55 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:21 pm
I can know I exist only if I exist. If I don't exist then I won't be able to know I don't exist.
You still have to exist to know you don't exist, so you cannot not exist EVER, and if you cannot not exist then you cannot exist either, for how would you know you exist without relation to it's opposite?..existence doesn't know whether it exists or not, it cannot inform itself of such concepts.

''You''cannot experience your own absence or presence...because there is no 'other' than infinite YOU

There is no you experiencing the knowledge of yourself existing or not-existing, except in this conceptual conception as knowledge informs the illusory nature of finite realities. Reality is infinity now which means no thing is happening.

.

uwot
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by uwot » Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:28 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:55 pm
You still have to exist to know you don't exist...
The point about not existing is that you wouldn't know it. All anyone knows with absolute certainty is that their current experiences exist. That's what Descartes' 'I think, therefore I am' boils down to. Everything else is theory-laden.

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Sculptor
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by Sculptor » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:44 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:40 am
Sculptor wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:08 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:58 pm
If you scan the Brain you are detecting Neural Activity not actual Conscious Experience.
What sort of proof is going to satisfy you? None.
Neural activity is consciousness.
Nothing is going to show "ACTUAL consciousness". All science is representation. War & Peace does not show actual War. A falling apple does not show actual gravity. Trump does not show actual thinking.
These analogies are Diversions and Obfuscations from the question. Gravity and War have nothing to do with what we are talking about. Specifically with regard to Conscious Experience: What is the Redness of Red? I reject your belief that Science cannot study this. When you say: Nothing is going to show "ACTUAL consciousness" you are professing to know something about Consciousness that you don't really know. There is nothing that rings more hollow than the statement: Neural Activity is Consciousness. There is a huge Explanatory Gap in that statement and it is mind boggling that you don't see it.
Perfect transference. I think a psychologist would have fun with you. My analogies are fine. It is you that is obfuscating. You can try to counter obfuscate but my points remain.
Yes of course science can study consciousness. What I said is that it cannot DIRECTLY "Show" it. It cannot show it anymore than it can show gravity. And obfuscate how ever much you like that is what science does; its a system of metaphors and representations.
Neural activity is consciousness. Please demonstrate a gap! I won't hold my breath.
Because acceleration towards a large mass is gravity is what science has given us, and it is perfectly consistent with my statement on neural activity.

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Sculptor
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by Sculptor » Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:48 pm

uwot wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:27 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:53 am
...as a side note, the 800lb Gorilla in the room is the Conscious Self that does the Experiencing of Redness.
Well yeah. Whatever consciousness is, it is indistinguishable from a miracle. Given the evident association with physical brains, my hunch is that consciousness is, in effect, the 'field' generated by the largely electromagnetic activity; a bit like light is the product of a lightbulb. The interesting result of that analogy is that if a lightbulb 'dies', the light it created carries on traveling through the universe, more or less forever. Who knows? Maybe being dead is just the start.
Nope.
Light does not continue forever. Neither does life.
The light from a bulb is absorbed into matter and transforms into heat, which is effectively energy with no information.
Life is the unique and contingent organisation of matter, when you lose that organisation you lose every thing that characterises that life, all the information is gone and the life cannot be recovered.
Death is definitely not the start of anything, but decay and corruption.

uwot
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by uwot » Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:14 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:48 pm
Light does not continue forever.
Well, it's got a pretty good shelf-life. We can see light that is nearly 14 billion years old.
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:48 pm
Neither does life.
Wouldn't argue with that. And while we cannot be certain that life = consciousness, I suspect your implication that consciousness ends at death is correct, but ya never know. It's a funny old world.
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:48 pm
Death is definitely not the start of anything, but decay and corruption.
Of the body? Absolutely, but try telling that to a Christian.

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Sculptor
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Re: Locked Mind Thought Experiment

Post by Sculptor » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:03 pm

uwot wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:14 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:48 pm
Light does not continue forever.
Well, it's got a pretty good shelf-life. We can see light that is nearly 14 billion years old.
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:48 pm
Neither does life.
Wouldn't argue with that. And while we cannot be certain that life = consciousness, I suspect your implication that consciousness ends at death is correct, but ya never know. It's a funny old world.
Sculptor wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:48 pm
Death is definitely not the start of anything, but decay and corruption.
Of the body? Absolutely, but try telling that to a Christian.
I do all the time - they ain't listening.
But none have come back from death to tell me I was wrong.

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