Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Skepdick
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:31 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:11 pm
Yes, with the stage of understanding that we have about Consciousness, we must Presuppose things and make Speculations.
That's actually very Scientific at the early stages of understanding any Phenomenon. I like to specifically study Sense Experience, and in particular the Visual Experience, and more particularly the Redness Experience. I think that Redness is a thing in itself that exists in the Universe and will one day be Explained. If my Presuppositions and Speculations are right or wrong will be determined when the truth about Conscious Experience is discovered.
Good luck.

You've ignored the KISS principle and gotten yourself into a gordian knot.

surreptitious57
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:11 am

Skepdick wrote:
The word gravity doesnt point to anything concrete in the real world
The word gravity is a null pointer and your brain is unable to handle its own null pointer exception
Gravity may not be an object but objects are not the only things that exist within the real world

Electromagnetism - strong nuclear force - weak nuclear force
Absolute nothing - spacetime - energy - entropy - evolution
Thoughts - dreams - hallucinations - meditation - silence
Numbers - words - signifiers - information - knowledge

surreptitious57
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:36 am

Dontaskme wrote:
The ocean of consciousness is the source of all matter
All physicality around us is the result of a frequency of resonance
If you amplify the frequency the structure of matter will change
The source of all matter is energy which exists in both non conscious objects and conscious organisms
Everything physical is energy in a particular form and while all energy is eternally changing it cannot ever be destroyed
Because the Universe is itself eternal then energy has to be eternal too - the other thing that has to be eternal is space

In this body I am energy and when this body dies it will still be energy - all bodies are simply frequencies of different energy levels

surreptitious57
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:48 am

Dontaskme wrote:
If the Universe is matter then the believer needs possessions and riches
Remember that all physicality is a frequency
Fear is a slow dense vibrational state
If we hold fear our consciousness lowers and the frequency of our reality is dense and slow
A being needs water and oxygen and heat and light and protein and vitamins but unnecessary material possessions are entirely optional
Having fewer of them makes one more free within ones own mind because one is not controlled by the desire to own as much as possible

Some fear is good for self preservation but too much of it is bad for both the mind and the body
One can also learn through meditation how to control their fear rather than have it control them

surreptitious57
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:05 am

Dontaskme wrote:
At a sub atomic quantum level reality organizes according to the expectations of the observers
Everything in the Universe is composed of sub atomic particles whirling at lightening speed around huge empty spaces

These particles are not material objects they are fluctuations of energy and information in a cosmic void of energy and information
When you change the field that the atoms are in you change the atoms
We are made up of these atoms
Our feelings change the field of our atoms to literally alter our physical reality
We are quantum - we are energy - we are information
The quantum comes from absolute nothing so we come from absolute nothing too
There will always be quantum and energy and information in some form even when the Universe dies
Something must always exist simply because Nature cannot exist as a vacuum beyond the infinitesimal

The energy I am made from can never die only be transferred so while I will eventually die the energy I have will carry on for all of time
The energy I now have in this temporary body fluctuates and resonates at different levels depending upon my mental and physical state

surreptitious57
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jul 27, 2019 5:23 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Our BODY is a biological computer - WE are Consciousness
Our WORLD is a tiny frequency range within infinite ranges of frequency
LIFE is a holographic television station - Our consciousness creates the channel frequency of the REALITY we experience
We are a biological computer made of quantum energy that can never die
Our bodies are simply the manifestation of that energy at this point in time

Life and death are merely different energy levels - nothing more / nothing less
Every object / organism within Existence will die but Existence itself is eternal

We are an absolutely infinitesimal part of the total energy level of the Universe
We are simply passing through the eternal state of Existence that can never die

We cannot affect reality as such but we can affect our individual perception of reality
We can manipulate the quantum energy state within our minds and become more adaptable
We can do this by either becoming more mentally postive or more mentally neutral / detached

SteveKlinko
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:32 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 10:31 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:11 pm
Yes, with the stage of understanding that we have about Consciousness, we must Presuppose things and make Speculations.
That's actually very Scientific at the early stages of understanding any Phenomenon. I like to specifically study Sense Experience, and in particular the Visual Experience, and more particularly the Redness Experience. I think that Redness is a thing in itself that exists in the Universe and will one day be Explained. If my Presuppositions and Speculations are right or wrong will be determined when the truth about Conscious Experience is discovered.
Good luck.

You've ignored the KISS principle and gotten yourself into a gordian knot.
What could be simpler than Redness? If by Gordian Knot you are implying that the puzzle of Consciousness is not solvable then I disagree.

Skepdick
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:38 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:32 pm
What could be simpler than Redness?
That's precisely the bug in your reasoning.

Science learns things via the process of reductionism. Analysis.
It is the process of breaking up complex phenomena into constituents.
Scientific understanding comes from deconstruction.

If redness is "simple" then redness cannot be reduced/analysed/deconstructed any further.
Redness cannot be deconstructed. Redness is irreducible complexity.

If nothing could be simpler then Redness cannot be understood via scientific reductionism.

It seems to me that the paradigm of complexity/systems thinking is completely foreign to you.
This is a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Miy9uQcwo3U&t=131s

SteveKlinko
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:37 am

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:38 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 12:32 pm
What could be simpler than Redness?
That's precisely the bug in your reasoning.

Science learns things via the process of reductionism. Analysis.
It is the process of breaking up complex phenomena into constituents.
Scientific understanding comes from deconstruction.

If redness is "simple" then redness cannot be reduced/analysed/deconstructed any further.
Redness cannot be deconstructed. Redness is irreducible complexity.

If nothing could be simpler then Redness cannot be understood via scientific reductionism.

It seems to me that the paradigm of complexity/systems thinking is completely foreign to you.
This is a good place to start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Miy9uQcwo3U&t=131s
You sure know how to avoid the main issue by throwing in extraneous and pointless side issues. The question remains, Given:

1) Neural Activity for Red happens in the Brain
2) A Conscious Experience of Redness happens in the Mind

How does 1 produce or lead to 2?

If Complexity Theory has anything to do with the answer, then I have not seen the Evidence or Chain of Logic that shows that.

Skepdick
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:54 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:37 am
You sure know how to avoid the main issue by throwing in extraneous and pointless side issues. The question remains, Given:

1) Neural Activity for Red happens in the Brain
2) A Conscious Experience of Redness happens in the Mind
Q.E.D you don't even know that distinctions are just another instrument for analysis and enquiry.

You have drawn a distinction between the brain and the mind, but you choose to ignore the question of utmost importance: "How does neural activity in the brain produce the mind?"

This is the fundamental error of all mind-body dualists.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:37 am
If Complexity Theory has anything to do with the answer, then I have not seen the Evidence or Chain of Logic that shows that.
What I am demonstrating is precisely that. You don't understand the chain of logic employed during the scientific process.
You keep drawing linguistic distinctions (brain vs mind) blissfully unaware that this is the product of the analytic process.

You don't understand how understanding works.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:04 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:54 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:37 am
You sure know how to avoid the main issue by throwing in extraneous and pointless side issues. The question remains, Given:

1) Neural Activity for Red happens in the Brain
2) A Conscious Experience of Redness happens in the Mind
Q.E.D you don't even know that distinctions are just another instrument for analysis and enquiry.

You have drawn a distinction between the brain and the mind, but you choose to ignore the question of utmost importance: "How does neural activity in the brain produce the mind?"

This is the fundamental error of all mind-body dualists.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:37 am
If Complexity Theory has anything to do with the answer, then I have not seen the Evidence or Chain of Logic that shows that.
What I am demonstrating is precisely that. You don't understand the chain of logic employed during the scientific process.

You keep drawing linguistic distinctions (brain vs mind) blissfully unaware that this is the product of the analytic process.
I don't avoid the question of how the Neural Activity produces the Mind and in fact I think that is the 800lb Gorilla in the room. But asking the more complicated question of how is Mind generated does not get you anywhere. It is better to pick a more simple aspect or component of Mind like Redness and try to understand it first. As we understand the parts we will one day understand the whole Mind.

Skepdick
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:08 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:04 pm
I don't avoid the question of how the Neural Activity produces the Mind and in fact I think that is the 800lb Gorilla in the room. But asking the more complicated question of how is Mind generated does not get you anywhere. It is better to pick a more simple aspect or component of Mind like Redness and try to understand it first. As we understand the parts we will one day understand the whole Mind.
How are you going to understand what happen in the mind if you don't understand how the mind happens?
You don't know what the mind is. You don't know where in the brain the mind is. You don't know how the mind works. You don't know anything about the mind.

But you want to discuss what happens in it?

Your entire premise "redness happens in the mind" is speculative.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:14 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:08 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:04 pm
I don't avoid the question of how the Neural Activity produces the Mind and in fact I think that is the 800lb Gorilla in the room. But asking the more complicated question of how is Mind generated does not get you anywhere. It is better to pick a more simple aspect or component of Mind like Redness and try to understand it first. As we understand the parts we will one day understand the whole Mind.
How are you going to understand what happen in the mind if you don't understand how the mind happens?
You don't know what the mind is. You don't know how the works. You don't know anything about it.

Your entire premise "redness happens in the mind" is speculative.
I don't know what the Mind is and nobody knows what the Mind is. Speculation is all we have with regard to Consciousness and the Mind at this point in our understanding.

Skepdick
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:23 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:14 pm
I don't know what the Mind is and nobody knows what the Mind is. Speculation is all we have with regard to Consciousness and the Mind at this point in our understanding.
Hence: you are asking speculative questions two layers deep into your own ignorance.

You don't know what the mind is, but you are asking what happens in it.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jul 30, 2019 5:12 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:23 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:14 pm
I don't know what the Mind is and nobody knows what the Mind is. Speculation is all we have with regard to Consciousness and the Mind at this point in our understanding.
Hence: you are asking speculative questions two layers deep into your own ignorance.

You don't know what the mind is, but you are asking what happens in it.
Maybe... But who knows how many layers Deep it actually is. You have to begin somewhere and this is where I am, at this point in time.

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