Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:07 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:44 pm
What dichotomy. Volition is an attribute of the human mind, and aspect of one's nature as a human being. There is no dichotomy.
There is more to a human being than a mind.
Of course. Perhaps I can clarify. Volition is an attribute of the human mind, one aspect of human nature as a human being. That does not mean that is all there is to a human being, though the mind is the most important aspect of human nature and that which distinguishes human beings from all other organisms.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:07 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:44 pm
Epistemologically, knowledge means intellectual knowledge, that is, knowledge by means of language.
Then your conception of knowledge is incomplete. It fails to account for procedural knowledge.
Procedural knowledge is knowledge requiring language just as all knowledge is. It is impossible to describe a procedure without language.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:07 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:44 pm
In every day speech the words "know" and "knowledge" are used to identify many different things, such as developed skills and abilities (he knows how to drive, she knows how to type, he knows how to used the computer)
Knowing how to drive a car doesn't require language. Knowing how to use a computer doesn't require language.
That is exactly my point. Those things are called knowledge in every day language, but that is not what the word knowledge means in epistemology. Epistemology only deals with knowledge by means of language, which is only possible to human minds.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:07 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:44 pm
Intellectual knowledge, however, pertains only to knowledge acquired and held by means of language.
Where does that leave science? Knowledge first-hand empirically acquired and formalized?!?
Language is the means by which empirical observation is recorded and analyzed. Without language there would be no science.
Can you convert "intellectual knowledge" into procedural knowledge? e.g can you apply your knowledge?
As already mentioned, all procedures are described and recorded by means of language. Procedural knowledge
is intellectual knowledge.
If you can't do anything with it then it's worth less than toilet paper.
Without knowledge, which is only possible by means of language, there is nothing a human can do as a human being, that is, what one does by choosing to do it. From dressing themselves in the morning to choosing what to have for breakfast, from productive work to recreation, everything a human being does requires knowledge which makes it possible for him to do it.
It is the fact that everything a human being does must be consciously chosen (except for the purely biological, reflex, and autonomic behavior), that knowledge is necessary. A choice requires a judgement based on reason based on what one knows, a judgement that answers the questions, what is there to choose, what will be the consequences of a choice, which choice will result in what I want? One has only one source for one's reason, their knowledge. Knowledge is all there is to think (reason) with and knowledge is all there is to think about. The limit of one's knowledge is the limit of their choices, and since a human being must live by choice, it is the limit of a human life.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:07 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:44 pm
I'd be interested to know how you came to a conclusion like that. Most of the "heavenly bodies" which astronomy and physics came later to "understand" were named long before that understanding. Most of the chemical elements were named before their nature was understood.
Exactly! They were named before "understanding" but they were named after "identification and classification". Which is trivial at the human scale and with the instruments nature have you - your eyes! You can go and observe the night sky yourself using a telescope. You can also see two bright planets in the sky. And you don't have to label them "Mars" and "Venus".
I was referring to your statement that, "Understanding a phenomenon comes before naming a phenomenon." Have you changed, "understanding," to, "identification and classification?" Actually naming an existent is identification.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:07 pm
RCSaunders wrote: ↑Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:47 pm
There is a common mistaken belief that the purpose of language is communication. It is certainly the most important means of communication, but the essential purpose of language is knowledge. One must know something before they can communicate it.
To claim that the essential purpose of language is knowledge is to claim that without language knowledge is impossible.
That's right. Without language, intellectual knowledge is impossible, and without intellectual knowledge, thinking is impossible, and without thinking (judging) choice is impossible.
Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:07 pm
And yet - humans knew how to invent language.
The use of some form of language is probably part of human nature. Baby's, especially twins, seem to communicate using some kind of, "language," before learning the language of adults. It seems that humans who have never learned a language nevertheless use various sounds to identify things and express reactions that have meaning to the users. I am not saying this is so, but there is evidence for it. It is certainly true that all actual languages were invented by human beings but if knowledge was required for that invention or if it occurred as an aspect of the requirement for knowledge by human nature cannot be known.