Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

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Belinda
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by Belinda » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:26 pm

The right wing in Europe and the US and politicised communists are not poles apart they join hands in spirit. The spirit of totalitarianism defends the regime against the people.

Dictators have sneaky ways of hiding their fangs.

The latest Trumpist move against the poorer sort of women is populist. The oldtime religion has still a strong vote in the USA.

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Sculptor
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Re: Mannie

Post by Sculptor » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:37 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:25 am
Lacewing wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:14 am
Boo hoo.
Don't cry for me, Argentina.

If you've got tears, you could use them all up on the over 100,000,000 souls in the last century who found out too late that what I said about Leftism was precisely true...right before their bodies rolled into a pit.
SO childish.
Leftism has given us public health, schools for everyone, employment legislation, human rights, and many other freedoms.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Mannie

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:10 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:37 pm
Leftism has given us public health, schools for everyone, employment legislation, human rights, and many other freedoms.
Nope.

Public schools came from Evangelical Christians in Victorian England. So did labour reforms, jail reforms, anti-slavery, children's rights...and on, and on. Leftism has come on the scene very late, and has borrowed these causes. They did not originate them.

As for human right generally, they came directly from the theory of John Locke, the Protestant. He's quite explicit about that, and all our modern human rights codes quote him...the Bill of Rights, the Universal Declaration of the UN...

You've got the story completely wrong. Atheism rationalizes no rights at all. But it does open up a vacuum for Leftist ideology, the most homicidal ideology in human history.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Mannie

Post by Arising_uk » Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:41 am

Immanuel Can wrote:Nope.

Public schools came from Evangelical Christians in Victorian England. ...
No they didn't, Public schools came much earlier in our system.
As for human right generally, they came directly from the theory of John Locke, the Protestant. He's quite explicit about that, and all our modern human rights codes quote him...the Bill of Rights, the Universal Declaration of the UN... ...
Bollocks we had the Magna Carta way before Locke.
You've got the story completely wrong. Atheism rationalizes no rights at all. But it does open up a vacuum for Leftist ideology, the most homicidal ideology in human history.
What a load of old tosh. If by 'Leftist' ideology you mean some form of communalism we can trace that all the way back to the Levellers and Digggers over here and they were certainly not Atheists. You are a born-again Christian loon who is certainly not very Christain but definitely a loon.

Jeff
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by Jeff » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:18 pm

I read through some of the responses, and they seem to have devolved pretty quickly, but not knowing the author or his intentions, I think the question has merit.

Is there a line between being a person and just being alive? After all, being alive, in the biological sense, doesn't necessarily imply personhood. Just as personhood wouldn't necessarily imply being alive in the biological sense. While I'm open to persuasion on this point, that is my current intuition.

If it is the case that a line can be drawn between "personhood" and being "alive". The question is just "are women carrying a living thing, or are they carrying a person, or maybe it doesn't qualify as either?" Are these entities on one side of the line or the other?

At the moment, I'm open to persuasion on this point, and I'd like to hear what the arguments are for the definition of Personhood? What does it entail?

Jeff
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Re: Mannie

Post by Jeff » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:24 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 5:10 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:37 pm
Leftism has given us public health, schools for everyone, employment legislation, human rights, and many other freedoms.
Nope.

Public schools came from Evangelical Christians in Victorian England. So did labour reforms, jail reforms, anti-slavery, children's rights...and on, and on. Leftism has come on the scene very late, and has borrowed these causes. They did not originate them.

As for human right generally, they came directly from the theory of John Locke, the Protestant. He's quite explicit about that, and all our modern human rights codes quote him...the Bill of Rights, the Universal Declaration of the UN...

You've got the story completely wrong. Atheism rationalizes no rights at all. But it does open up a vacuum for Leftist ideology, the most homicidal ideology in human history.

Is there some reason why a person couldn't be, well, whatever we are calling a leftist, AND an Evangelical?

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henry quirk
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Jeff

Post by henry quirk » Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:45 pm

"not knowing the author or his intentions, I think the question has merit."

I'm the bastid who started the thread; my intention was mostly to point out that 'personhood' is ill-defined (we know it when we see it, though), and that no one knows when 'meat' crosses over into bein' 'person' (and since we don't 'know' [as a matter of fact] then mebbe we need to err on safety's side and not be sanctioning -- willy-nilly -- abortion on demand at any old time during a pregnancy).

Also: I threw in a little natural rights libertarianism (with a dash of deism) to spice things up.

#

"If it is the case that a line can be drawn between "personhood" and being "alive". The question is just "are women carrying a living thing, or are they carrying a person, or maybe it doesn't qualify as either?" Are these entities on one side of the line or the other?

Seems to me: what a pregnant woman carries has to be human meat or a person. There really doesn't seem to be any other options.

#

"I'd like to hear what the arguments are for the definition of Personhood?"

As I say: what constitutes 'person' is ill-defined, so instead of foistin' up a defintion, I ask you to self-interrogate...

Am I a person? If so, what are the qualities & characteristics that make me a 'person'? What a pregnant woman carries: does it have those qualities & characteristics?

Impenitent
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Re: Jeff

Post by Impenitent » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:17 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 8:45 pm


Am I a person? If so, what are the qualities & characteristics that make me a 'person'?
recognition by the herd, unless one is a solipsist

-Imp

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henry quirk
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so: a guy marooned alone on an island is not a person?

Post by henry quirk » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:41 pm

:confused:

Impenitent
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Re: so: a guy marooned alone on an island is not a person?

Post by Impenitent » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:43 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:41 pm
:confused:
not until Wilson gave him recognition ...

-Imp

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:45 pm

:laughing:

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Mannie

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jul 24, 2019 3:38 am

Jeff wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:24 pm
Is there some reason why a person couldn't be, well, whatever we are calling a leftist, AND an Evangelical?
It would depend on what it means to be a "Leftist." You'd have to drill down on that concept a bit, before a fair answer could be given.

If, by "Leftist," one simply means "a person who advocates for more social programs," then the answer is obviously, "Yes."

If one means "a person who believes the Marxist accounts of history and/or religion," then the answer would surely have to be "No."

The former would be only a question of means; the latter, the commitment to an antithetical worldview.

Seem right to you?

Walker
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by Walker » Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:40 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:48 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:09 pm
Eat less dead animals.
Right!

At least for some. Oysters are best while still alive.
Not a good idea for mountain oysters unless you’re really into animal husbandry, and even then you're taking a real chance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNUbwijCKfw

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RCSaunders
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by RCSaunders » Wed Jul 24, 2019 1:22 pm

Walker wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 9:40 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:48 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:09 pm
Eat less dead animals.
Right!

At least for some. Oysters are best while still alive.
Not a good idea for mountain oysters unless you’re really into animal husbandry, and even then you're taking a real chance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNUbwijCKfw
There's a sea of difference between oysters from a shell and oysters from a bag.

Impenitent
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Re: Does a pregnant woman carry a human being/person or just 'life'/meat?

Post by Impenitent » Wed Jul 24, 2019 6:12 pm

the Blue Oysters have a cult following...

-Imp

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