Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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surreptitious57
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:18 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
An object is the subject objectifying itself ... the object is never the subject because subject and object are ONE
We may think of ourselves as subjects rather than objects but subjects are objects too
From the reference frame of the Universe itself we are both - there is no real difference

We only think of ourselves as subjects from our own tiny perspective but in the grand scheme of things we are nothing at all
While other minds may find this very depressing I find it very liberating because I refuse to be intimidated by such a limitation
I may be but a single drop of water in the cosmic ocean of all that exists but since I cannot change it I simply accept it instead

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Dontaskme
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:46 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 1:18 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
An object is the subject objectifying itself ... the object is never the subject because subject and object are ONE
We may think of ourselves as subjects rather than objects but subjects are objects too
From the reference frame of the Universe itself we are both - there is no real difference

We only think of ourselves as subjects from our own tiny perspective but in the grand scheme of things we are nothing at all
While other minds may find this very depressing I find it very liberating because I refuse to be intimidated by such a limitation
I may be but a single drop of water in the cosmic ocean of all that exists but since I cannot change it I simply accept it instead
I agree in the sense of a wave thinking it is the ocean, because the ocean itself has no awareness of itself except as a wave...but then the wave seems to think it is the ocean..when the ocean is actually the wave. This is what is going on with human consciousness...it's not actually human, for there is no attribute within the ocean of consciousness except in it's conception as and through the wave.

We are the ocean waving one wave at a time, for the whole ocean cannot know itself all at once, and that is the nothingness that is everything, so it's only one thing at a time that can be known as it becomes known to itself as and through each wave. The wave doesn't exist apart from the ocean of knowing that can only know itself one wave at a time...so there is no difference between the ocean and the wave, they are the same nothingness which is everything. The not-knowing known as and when that knowing rises up as a wave.

That's my analogy...thanks for yours.

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surreptitious57
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:13 pm

Many drops of water become as one when they come together to form an ocean
The wave is a part of the ocean so there is no difference between the two here

When I die my being will eventually become like the water in the ocean and become one with nature
There will be no me anymore once my body has been cremated and all my ashes have been scattered

We came from stardust and will eventually return to dust and even beyond that after we die and are nothing remotely recognisable anymore
As there will be no body or mind just atoms drifting in space and eventually even they may not exist although something will always be there

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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:21 pm

You cannot know you know else the immediate knowing would be altered by the new knowing..never quite catching up to what is actually really going on.

''Consciousness'' is all there is, from moment to moment and not even that because Consciousness is beyond time and space.

Knowing is in the realm of time and space duality in the dream of separation, but you are beyond the dream world of separation, you are the undivided placelessness in which the whole dream is arising ..there can be no dream without a place to happen, that place is the placeless place of conscious awareness.

_______________________

Excerpt from Rupert Spira.
There is no entity that goes ‘there.’ to the realm of the dream in spacetime duality.

Rather Consciousness is always in its own placeless place, knowing and being only itself, eternally.

Within Consciousness, and made only out of it, the dualising mind rises up, seeming thereby to obscure Consciousness’ knowing of its own being and creating as a result, an apparent separate entity and an apparent separate world.

A second thought then arises which believes that this apparent entity is both ‘knowing’ and ‘present’ (being) in its own right, and further thoughts subsequently rise up which credit this apparent entity with the ability to choose, decide, act, love, etc. etc. including the ability to go in and out of Consciousness.

But this apparent entity has no existence of its own. It is just a thought and a thought cannot know or do anything, let alone go anywhere.

So the apparent separate entity does not know anything, let alone hop between knowing and not knowing.

Rather we could say that there is Consciousness, which is Knowingness itself and that this Knowingness is sometimes SEEMINGLY obscured by the arising of the dualising mind.

However, that is the answer to a question that provisionally believes that the dualising mind obscures Consciousness.

In reality Consciousness never knows anything other than itself, even when the dualising mind appears.

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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:28 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:13 pm
Many drops of water become as one when they come together to form an ocean
The wave is a part of the ocean so there is no difference between the two here
Consciousness is the whole ocean here, consciousness has no form to form itself..yet takes on an illusory form, so there is no actual thing aggregating together to form what is always and ever consciousness here. In the same context Consciousness is like the forest ..the forest can't be known without lots of singles trees making the forest known...So here it is known that the trees are the forest, there is no separation there or any coming together as the trees are not separate from the forest...the trees are the forest.

I don't think the ocean of oneness has ever been apart from itself except in the dream of separation that is already occuring within oneness itself.
Drops do not form the ocean, the ocean forms the drop as it's own not-knowing knowing of itself.

surreptitious57 wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:13 pm
When I die my being will eventually become like the water in the ocean and become one with nature
There will be no me anymore once my body has been cremated and all my ashes have been scattered
But this is knowledge within the dream of separation, it's not what is actually happening. The water never becomes like the water it already is, like an ice-cube never becomes the water it already is...there is a dissolving of the ice-cube (form) back into the formless (water) aka consciousness.. there is here only formless consciousness dreaming it is form...the form knows nothing of it's existence outside of the consciousness that knows it.

I think the sense around this paradox is that emptiness aka the ocean of formless oneness and the form it takes on in the shape of a 'thing' are mutually dependent - really they are not different, they are the same thing. As entities we have no choice but to be a vehicle of 'thing-ing'

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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by commonsense » Thu Jul 18, 2019 8:31 pm

lol

Skepdick
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:31 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:19 pm
Gravity is the fact that the Apple falls.
It is obvious that you don't even understand the basic relationships between facts, explanations and theories.

The fact is THAT the apple falls.
The fact leads to the question: What causes the apple to fall?
The answer to the question is: Gravity.

Gravity causes the apple to fall. Gravity is the current and best theory for why the apple falls.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:19 pm
Science would not say Gravity does not exist if one theory was replaced by another but rather it would just have an revised Explanation. In fact this has happened with the understanding of Space-Time Curvature replacing Field Theory.
Except, the existence of gravity is entirely speculative in QFT.

And so there is a non-zero possibility that we eventually find a better answer to the question "Why does the apple fall?". And that answer could be something other than "gravity".

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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jul 23, 2019 7:03 am

The ocean of consciousness is the source of all matter.
There is no matter.
All physicality around us is the result of a frequency of resonance.
If you amplify the frequency, the structure of matter will change.
This self-contained system is a “super hologram,” and everything within
it is an expression of that hologram.
Since reality is a hologram, every particle is a vision of the whole.
In other words, the entire whole is contained in every particle.
We can’t find one particle, as it is a reflection of ALL particles.
If we change any small component of the hologram,
it is reflected in the whole.

The substance of the Universe is Consciousness.
Fear-based consciousness holds the belief that the substance of the Universe is matter.
If the Universe is matter, then the believer needs possessions and riches.
Remember that all physicality is a frequency.
Fear is a slow, dense vibrational state.
If we hold fear, our consciousness lowers and the frequency of our reality is dense and slow.
Within a holographic reality, what you believe, you create.
Reality is built out of thought.
Every thought is like a spider, spinning a web in the holographic matrix.

The Matrix of a hologram is information.
When you put information into your hologram, you create fractals, unending and
ever-repeating patterns, in your matrix.
These fractals change your matrix.
When a system becomes highly destabilized, there will be random shifts that
suddenly self-organize into higher states of complexity.
At a sub-atomic, quantum level, reality organizes according to the expectations of the observer.
Everything in the Universe is composed of sub-atomic particles, whirling at lightening speed around huge empty spaces.

These particles are not material objects; they are fluctuations of energy and information in a cosmic void of energy and information.
When you change the field that the atoms are in, you change the atoms.
We are made up of these atoms.
Our feelings change the field of our atoms to literally alter our physical reality.

Our BODY is a biological computer.
WE are Consciousness.
Our WORLD is a tiny frequency range within infinite ranges of frequency.
LIFE is a holographic television station.
Our consciousness creates the channel, frequency, of the REALITY we experience.

We can’t imagine a reality that exists without us because...
The act of our observation allows us to create-as-we-go a participatory Universe.
We may never find the edge of the Universe or the smallest particle because...
Everywhere our consciousness explores with the expectation of perceiving
something, there it will be, for we have created it.
We are building the Universe as we go!

Consciousness is the programming language of our holographic Universe.
We are consciousness conductors.
Consciousness comes through us and emanates from us.
Therefore, humanity has the ability to create a new reality.
If we switch OFF our brains and hook our consciousness into the mainstream media of illusion,
we are manipulated in a certain way so that the creation of our reality is not ours—but the reality of someone else.
Therefore, we need to take control of our reality at a quantum level.

The world is just a ride, but we forgot that fact and began to believe that the ride is real.

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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:27 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:31 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:19 pm
Gravity is the fact that the Apple falls.
It is obvious that you don't even understand the basic relationships between facts, explanations and theories.

The fact is THAT the apple falls.
The fact leads to the question: What causes the apple to fall?
The answer to the question is: Gravity.

Gravity causes the apple to fall. Gravity is the current and best theory for why the apple falls.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:19 pm
Science would not say Gravity does not exist if one theory was replaced by another but rather it would just have an revised Explanation. In fact this has happened with the understanding of Space-Time Curvature replacing Field Theory.
Except, the existence of gravity is entirely speculative in QFT.

And so there is a non-zero possibility that we eventually find a better answer to the question "Why does the apple fall?". And that answer could be something other than "gravity".
You are trapped in a Semantic Feedback Loop.

f12hte
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by f12hte » Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:01 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:15 am

Consciousness is that which modifies itself as both the observing consciousness and the object observed.
In other words, consciousness is perceived relationships.

But what are relationships?

Relationships are conscious perceptions.

How are relationships determined by consciousness?

Relationships are determined by comparing current sensory data to remembered sensory data in consciousness.

Sensory data is electrical impulses, generated by what we perceive as body sensors, but effected by forces outside of consciousness.

Outside forces stimulate body sensors to send electrical impulses to the brain.

Something other than consciousness stands behind the activation of body sensors.

This is the unknown reality out of which our 'self's hallucinate perceptual reality for us.

Reality, as we perceive it, might not be what is actually consciously perceived in the physical world. But evolution has interpreted, whatever that reality is,in the way which best enables the conscious entity to survive that reality. What appears to us as DNA seems to be the blueprint for constructing an environmental detection and accommodation machine.

We carve out representations of these outside forces in consciousness, however, the thing that caused us to carve out these representations is not in consciousness. Reality is not something of which we are conscious. We are only conscious of that which helps us to survive in this unknown reality.

Do you think that there can be a disembodied consciousness, or do you think that conscious memory requires 'whatever it is' that we perceive as our brain and body? That is, can there be a consciousness without hallucinating a 'self'? Without a self, nothing can be carved out of reality. Without a self, we have nothing but many to many relationships, which is as meaningless as an un-analyzed mountain of data. It is only by hallucinating a self that we can develop the one to many relationships which allow for comparison of current conscious perception with past conscious perception. The non physical 'self' hallucination is what evolution requires for survival of the physical being.

The consciousness that we see during meditation; the mere recognition of being; is of little practical importance. It could be a phase change that is not effected until enough information (current data compared to past data) is collected. Or, it could be an elemental force of the universe. But this has no practical import for a being's survival, and is merely of intellectual interest. Consciousness is the medium of relationships, and it only works in the 'one to many' relationships envisioned from within a given 'self'.

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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jul 25, 2019 7:18 am

f12hte wrote:
Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:01 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:15 am

Consciousness is that which modifies itself as both the observing consciousness and the object observed.
In other words, consciousness is perceived relationships.

But what are relationships?

Relationships are conscious perceptions.

How are relationships determined by consciousness?

Relationships are determined by comparing current sensory data to remembered sensory data in consciousness.

Sensory data is electrical impulses, generated by what we perceive as body sensors, but effected by forces outside of consciousness.

Outside forces stimulate body sensors to send electrical impulses to the brain.

Something other than consciousness stands behind the activation of body sensors.

This is the unknown reality out of which our 'self's hallucinate perceptual reality for us.

Reality, as we perceive it, might not be what is actually consciously perceived in the physical world. But evolution has interpreted, whatever that reality is,in the way which best enables the conscious entity to survive that reality. What appears to us as DNA seems to be the blueprint for constructing an environmental detection and accommodation machine.

We carve out representations of these outside forces in consciousness, however, the thing that caused us to carve out these representations is not in consciousness. Reality is not something of which we are conscious. We are only conscious of that which helps us to survive in this unknown reality.

Do you think that there can be a disembodied consciousness, or do you think that conscious memory requires 'whatever it is' that we perceive as our brain and body? That is, can there be a consciousness without hallucinating a 'self'? Without a self, nothing can be carved out of reality. Without a self, we have nothing but many to many relationships, which is as meaningless as an un-analyzed mountain of data. It is only by hallucinating a self that we can develop the one to many relationships which allow for comparison of current conscious perception with past conscious perception. The non physical 'self' hallucination is what evolution requires for survival of the physical being.

The consciousness that we see during meditation; the mere recognition of being; is of little practical importance. It could be a phase change that is not effected until enough information (current data compared to past data) is collected. Or, it could be an elemental force of the universe. But this has no practical import for a being's survival, and is merely of intellectual interest. Consciousness is the medium of relationships, and it only works in the 'one to many' relationships envisioned from within a given 'self'.
Very good.

As for me, I see consciousness awareness as embodied ..not disembodied. For me, matter and spirit are the same one energy.

For me, reality is an hallucination, it's a virtual reality simply because it cannot see itself directly as a thing in and of itself separate from the hallucination having the hallucination, it can only see itself as an empty image, like a dream image, no different than how a subroutine within a computer displays itself upon the blank screen which is like a representation of what's already presenting itself within itself add infinitum. Endless appearances aka dreams within dreams within itself.

.

Skepdick
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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:22 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:27 pm
You are trapped in a Semantic Feedback Loop.
Well, no. I am not.

You are talking about gravity in the absence of gravitons (if you are in a QFT context).
You are talking about gravity in the absence of spacetime (if you are in a GR context).
In the context of an apple falling to the ground you are talking about a cause which explains the observed phenomenon.

Your logical fallacy is called affirming the consequent. It looks like this.

If P then Q.
Q
Therefore P.

If gravity exists (P) then apples will fall to the ground (Q).
Apples fall to the ground (Q)
Therefore gravity exists. (P)

What I am trying to point out is that you are mistaking the word "gravity" for something concrete. This is a reification fallacy.

The word "gravity" doesn't point to anything concrete in the real world. The word "gravity" is a null pointer and your brain is unable to handle its own null-pointer exception.

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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:11 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:22 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jul 23, 2019 11:27 pm
You are trapped in a Semantic Feedback Loop.
Well, no. I am not.

You are talking about gravity in the absence of gravitons (if you are in a QFT context).
You are talking about gravity in the absence of spacetime (if you are in a GR context).
In the context of an apple falling to the ground you are talking about a cause which explains the observed phenomenon.

Your logical fallacy is called affirming the consequent. It looks like this.

If P then Q.
Q
Therefore P.

If gravity exists (P) then apples will fall to the ground (Q).
Apples fall to the ground (Q)
Therefore gravity exists. (P)

What I am trying to point out is that you are mistaking the word "gravity" for something concrete. This is a reification fallacy.

The word "gravity" doesn't point to anything concrete in the real world. The word "gravity" is a null pointer and your brain is unable to handle its own null-pointer exception.
Haahhhh! That's a good one. My Brain implements try/catch sections to fully recover from these exceptions so it can not get trapped. I forgot what all this has to do with Conscious Experience in the first place. I think you were making an analogy with understanding Gravity and understanding Consciousness. We have now rendered this analogy useless by drilling too far down into it. An analogy is only useful for a top level idea and can get you off track from the real issue, which in this case is Conscious Experience.

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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by Skepdick » Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:41 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:11 pm
I think you were making an analogy with understanding Gravity and understanding Consciousness. We have now rendered this analogy useless by drilling too far down into it. An analogy is only useful for a top level idea and can get you off track from the real issue, which in this case is Conscious Experience.
It's the exact same conceptual problem you are facing. Reductionism.

You are pre-supposing the concrete existence of gravity, beyond the phenomenological.
You are pre-supposing the concrete existence of consciousness, beyond the phenomenological.

You are pre-supposing that gravity and consciousness can be reduced to an essence.

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Re: Consciousness IS - but it's NOT a ''Conscious Experience''

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Jul 26, 2019 3:11 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:41 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 12:11 pm
I think you were making an analogy with understanding Gravity and understanding Consciousness. We have now rendered this analogy useless by drilling too far down into it. An analogy is only useful for a top level idea and can get you off track from the real issue, which in this case is Conscious Experience.
It's the exact same conceptual problem you are facing. Reductionism.

You are pre-supposing the concrete existence of gravity, beyond the phenomenological.
You are pre-supposing the concrete existence of consciousness, beyond the phenomenological.

You are pre-supposing that gravity and consciousness can be reduced to an essence.
Yes, with the stage of understanding that we have about Consciousness, we must Presuppose things and make Speculations. That's actually very Scientific at the early stages of understanding any Phenomenon. I like to specifically study Sense Experience, and in particular the Visual Experience, and more particularly the Redness Experience. I think that Redness is a thing in itself that exists in the Universe and will one day be Explained. If my Presuppositions and Speculations are right or wrong will be determined when the truth about Conscious Experience is discovered.

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