Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:26 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:01 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:47 pm
I don't know How Consciousness works so that is Why I pursue it. It is what I do. If the Oneness thing is the answer then I don't understand that yet.
I understand that Steve ..but the truth is only you will figure this out for yourself. There is nothing another person can say to you that will alter your own mind, your mind is the only tool available to you, so what you are trying to pursue can only be comprehended by you, and that any conclusion in regards to what you are looking for can and will only come to you there, because you are the source of all your own knowledge.
It will not come from any other source outside of you in the thoughts of others. I get that. Other peoples ideas are mere breadcrumbs of what's already inside you too... ultimately, you are already the whole loaf, it's all within you, because you are not in the universe, the universe is in you.

I'm not trying to put words in anyones mouth here, we are only ever talking to others (ourselves) from our own direct experience here. We are ultimately listening to our own echo's and attaching to thoughts that literally come out of nowhere and are made of the consciousness that knows them. Think about that, every other person is a thought occuring here in you.... and that goes for every other person, they are thinking about other people existing from their point of conscious awareness there in them....and the reason that is possible is because the consciousness in you here is the same conscousness in the other there...and that every thing, every thought, is made of the consciousness that knows them. For there can be no thought without a consciousness to be conscious of them. Both consciousness and thought must be the same thing. That must mean every material thing, aka a thought is made out of the thing that knows the thought, and that which knows a thought is consciousness.
We cannot know the thought of another, because the other is a thought here in you, ''ANOTHER'' is just a thought KNOWN here in you, you being consciousness here...there is no there in here. There is only here.

Consciousness knows every thought, but can thought know consciousness? ..see nowhere that the question (''can thought know consciousness'')? ..is like asking ''can a tree know it is conscious'' ? or can any known concept be aware of itself?...''can the grass be aware it is grass''?
Do you see a problem with the idea of concepts knowing they are aware?



So back to my own unique descriptive experience of what is consciousness.. continues as follows...

The ''HOW'' of how concepts are known as observed by consciousness can't be answered. It'll always come down to the first cause conundrum, in that what caused the first cause to then be the cause of all other causes add infinitum. We can observe what causes an object to function in the way it does by examining another object and seeing that other object there is what's making this object here to function...and so on...in that a thing can only be known in relation to some other thing by association in effect.
In so much as every effect is the action of it's prior cause, and that cause is an effects of it's prior cause which is only an effect of it's cause...so here as an observer, we can see only effects....and that an effect is only an appearance effecting another appearance add infinitum...we can examine effects forever as the observer, attaching labels to them via thought anothe effective appearance...but we can never get to the first cause of the causer of all effects aka the actual observer...because maybe, just maybe consciousness is primary.


SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:47 pm
Everything about my existence tells me I am a Separate distinct Consciousness in a Universe of Separate Distinct Consciousnesses. If all Consciousness was One you would think that we would be like the Borg Collective on Star Trek. We would hear the thoughts of everybody in the Collective as a whole. The only thoughts in my head are Mine. I cannot perceive your thoughts or anyone else's thoughts.
The thought ''my head'' is a localised thought appearing in what thought thinks is this localised body here. But the thought KNOWN HERE is another thought thinking it is localised here in a body, when in truth no thought is ever localised in a body, that's just another thought...A body is just another non-localised free thought appearing from NOWHERE...nowhere is everywhere all at once one without a second, meaning non-local appearing to be local as thought.

In truth, thoughts are inside no head, they are non-localised and belong to no you with a separate head. The you with a separate head is another thought, also, the thought that there are others with their own separate head of thoughts is a thought too happening only here in you.

There is only here.

Here is everywhere all at once, here doesn't move, here is the silent still empty centre, the source of all known thought. That is what consciousness is.

Thoughts seem to jump around from head to head, appearing to be on the inside of multiple other heads...but even that is a thought appearing here in you. You IS SOURCE CONSCIOUSNESS. That never moved an inch, it's unborn and cannot die.

YOU are that.

.
Working on the Oneness ...

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:34 am

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:57 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:35 pm
I will have to understand Consciousness using Consciousness. That is a given, and doesn't mean that it cannot be done.
Maybe it can be done. Maybe it can't be done.

Before you understand consciousness using consciousness. Why don't you try to understand understanding using consciousness?

Surely that's a mandatory pre-requisite. Because, given your state off mental muddle it doesn't seem to me that you understand what it means to understand.
When I learned that 1 + 1 = 2 in first grade we did not need to Understand understanding. The fact that 1 + 1 = 2 is in itself the Understanding of the understanding of 1 + 1 = 2. Understanding Consciousness will be the same way. When we Understand Consciousness we will Understand what understanding Consciousness means.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:55 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:34 am
When I learned that 1 + 1 = 2 in first grade we did not need to Understand understanding.The fact that 1 + 1 = 2 is in itself the Understanding of the understanding of 1 + 1 = 2. Understanding Consciousness will be the same way. When we Understand Consciousness we will Understand what understanding Consciousness means.
That's not understanding. That's acceptance. Arithmetic indoctrination if you will.

Some times 1+1=2; and some times 1+1=10.

You said you are an engineer and you like to understand how things work. But you don't seem to understand WHY 1+1 equals whatever it equals.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:02 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:55 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:34 am
When I learned that 1 + 1 = 2 in first grade we did not need to Understand understanding.The fact that 1 + 1 = 2 is in itself the Understanding of the understanding of 1 + 1 = 2. Understanding Consciousness will be the same way. When we Understand Consciousness we will Understand what understanding Consciousness means.
That's not understanding. That's acceptance. Arithmetic indoctrination if you will.

Some times 1+1=2; and some times 1+1=10.

You said you are an engineer and you like to understand how things work. But you don't seem to understand WHY 1+1 equals whatever it equals.
I submit to you that I do Understand Why 1 + 1 = 2. It might be that you don't Understand it. You will have to sit down close your eyes and ponder this more Deeply. One day with enough work you will come to the realization of Why 1 + 1 = 2. Maybe you just don't want to put the Work into it. That's ok too.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:04 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:02 pm
I submit to you that I do Understand Why 1 + 1 = 2.
And I submit to you that you don't. You don't even know what a number is.

How are you going to understand what consciousness is when you can't even understand what a number is?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:02 pm
You will have to sit down close your eyes and ponder this more Deeply.
You mean do the same thing you've been doing to try to understand consciousness?

I thought you said that doesn't work...

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Sculptor
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Sculptor » Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:13 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:26 am
Working on the Oneness ...
But are you working on your ONE example??


I won't hold my breath.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:20 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:04 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:02 pm
I submit to you that I do Understand Why 1 + 1 = 2.
And I submit to you that you don't. You don't even know what a number is.

How are you going to understand what consciousness is when you can't even understand what a number is?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:02 pm
You will have to sit down close your eyes and ponder this more Deeply.
You mean do the same thing you've been doing to try to understand consciousness?

I thought you said that doesn't work...
I said it does work up to the point where you hit a Brick Wall with regard to Consciousness. I'm trying to show you how to Understand 1 + 1 = 2. Much easier than trying to Understand Consciousness. Think more Deeply and repeat after me: ... 1 ... + ... 1 ... = ... 2 ...

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:24 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:13 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:26 am
Working on the Oneness ...
But are you working on your ONE example??


I won't hold my breath.
I have thought that there is a certain amount of reasonableness to the Oneness proposition. I just don't have a way to Understand Oneness as being true for my Reality of the Universe.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:32 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:20 pm
Think more Deeply and repeat after me: ... 1 ... + ... 1 ... = ... 2 ...
Regurgitation doesn't require deep thought.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:08 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:32 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:20 pm
Think more Deeply and repeat after me: ... 1 ... + ... 1 ... = ... 2 ...
Regurgitation doesn't require deep thought.
People often think they Understand things but on Deeper reflection realize that they did not.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:24 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:08 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:32 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:20 pm
Think more Deeply and repeat after me: ... 1 ... + ... 1 ... = ... 2 ...
Regurgitation doesn't require deep thought.
People often think they Understand things but on Deeper reflection realize that they did not.
Indeed!

You think you understand 1+1, but perhaps on deeper reflection you might realise that you don't?
You think you understand what a number is, but perhaps on deeper reflection you might realise that you don't?

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:33 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:24 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:08 pm
Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:32 pm

Regurgitation doesn't require deep thought.
People often think they Understand things but on Deeper reflection realize that they did not.
Indeed!

You think you understand 1+1, but perhaps on deeper reflection you might realise that you don't?
You think you understand what a number is, but perhaps on deeper reflection you might realise that you don't?
Exactly true. I have tried thinking Deeper about 1 + 1 = 2 but have not been able to not Understand it. I'll keep trying.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:13 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:24 pm
I have thought that there is a certain amount of reasonableness to the Oneness proposition. I just don't have a way to Understand Oneness as being true for my Reality of the Universe.
The one trying to understand oneness is what's obscuring the oneness that is already being you...the (other one) the one who wants to know, is a conceptual overlay upon what is already knowing one with itself.

Reality / life / beingness /oneness or what ever you want to call this... has no concept of itself, it's totally unidentified..Concepts come from the demand to be identified as a naturally occuring artistic function of the illusory conjuring mind, all knowledge is a mind trick, the trick is apparent when there is a demand to become knowledgable of it's own existence. The mind doesn't know it doesn't actually exist...that's why it is able to believe it does...it doesn't know that it's imagined knowledge is nothing but a fictional overlay, an appearance already within the oneness that is already being..fundamentally without knowing how it knows.

Knowledge therefore, informs the illusory nature of life in that it has no knowledge of itself. It is the knowing that cannot be known... By trying to understand oneness you already are is to want to be knowledgable about yourself on demand....there is no such entity that can do that, or be in search of knowledge of itself existing...except in the artificial conception no thing aka oneness makes via it's own mental mind trick, tricking itself into believing it exists... while the real state of being oneness has no requirement for any knowledge on demand to know itself, it's already being itself, it already knows without knowing.

This startling and profound realisation will dawn when life evloves it to be realised, and it will not happen one second before it's meant to happen because there is nothing in control of life making anything happen, life is simply living itself all alone, one without a second, and it's the only knowing and happening there is, one with itself.



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surreptitious57
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:48 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
The localised mind is a temporal finite perception within non localised eternally perceiving mind ... aka SOURCE

Source is unborn it is the womb / void of all apparent birth / creation and cannot be negated source has always existed . Existence
existing now means existence must have always existed for how can existence not exist how can there be a non existing existence ?
Existence has always existed because a state of non existence cannot persist but existence doesnt have to be source
Existence is simply the eternal ever changing state that is possible of which source is but one possible manifestation

For me what is important is the eternal nature of existence rather than what it is specifically because that cannot be known
We are a very infinitesimal part of this eternal ever changing existence and so can never truly comprehend it in its entirety

It would be like trying to count to infinity within your lifetime - however long you lived you could never get to the end because there is no end

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:57 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:48 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
The localised mind is a temporal finite perception within non localised eternally perceiving mind ... aka SOURCE

Source is unborn it is the womb / void of all apparent birth / creation and cannot be negated source has always existed . Existence
existing now means existence must have always existed for how can existence not exist how can there be a non existing existence ?
Existence has always existed because a state of non existence cannot persist but existence doesnt have to be source
Existence is simply the eternal ever changing state that is possible of which source is but one possible manifestation

For me what is important is the eternal nature of existence rather than what it is specifically because that cannot be known
We are a very infinitesimal part of this eternal ever changing existence and so can never truly comprehend it in its entirety

It would be like trying to count to infinity within your lifetime - however long you lived you could never get to the end because there is no end
No one is living.

No one to know anything....all knowns are made up by no one.

.

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