Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:39 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:18 pm
Let's just say that if everyone became Smarter then maybe someone would be able to answer the Question. In any case being Smart is not relevant to the Question: How does Neural Activity produce Conscious Experience?
Steve, only a concious entity knowledgeable of it's own existence can ask a question, so the only real question is where does that knowledge of one's own existence come from?

There is apparent knowledge, but what exactly is knowledge, what is a concept? knowledge is conceptual.

So really, that's the only hard problem, the problem of where does knowledge come from?

Notice consciousness doesn't need a knowledge to BE ...so then when the question arises ''who is being'' ? that question triggers a whole other realm of knowledge upon what is essentially this immediate not-knowing unknown BEINGNESS one with itself...

So knowledge then is just 'thoughts' externalised into things upon nothing.


Therefore, questions can only be answered by the knowledge that is already available, the knowledge that we already have.

Questions pertain to knowledge, if there was no knowledge a question wouldn't even arise, so the answer to every question must already exist within the knowledge we already have.

So where there is knowledge there is the answer to every question already available.

So Consciousness is not really a hard problem is it?

An example of already knowing the answers to all our questions..goes like this...

There is a spontaneous demand to know ''What it Consciousness''?

That is a ''thought'' arising in you. And you are aware of that ''thought''

The ''thought'' goes something like this...

Who am I?

Another thought answers:

"I don't know any more who or what I am" ?

Another thought asks:

"Is there any way for thought to clear up this apparent problem?"

Who can answer this question?

A 'sense' (feeling/idea) of "impending transformation" arises.

As it arises, so it is experienced/known.

This 'sense' is senseless, unknowing

That which experiences the 'sense of impending transformation' is never transformed.

BECAUSE CONSCIOUSNESS IS NOT AN EXPERIENCE

You cannot experience what you already are.

You are consciousness experiencing itself as the many of the ONE

.

.

There is no concious entity inside your body looking to see if it can see it's own consciousness...but you Steve insist on looking for what's already looking, and when what is looking is looking for what is already looking inside of what it's looking at..that's the only big problem there is here...but then it's not even a problem there because there is no looker present in what is being looked at...you see?

.

In looking, one can only see the object of looking....the object becomes the seen and the seen is the looked upon...but there is no seer inside any object...the object is inside the seer that cannot be looked at.....do you understand that Steve?

.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:40 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:57 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 5:44 pm
Ok here's one for you: What is the meaning of How and How can you come to understand the meaning of What.
Ohhhhh. I thought we are busy engaging in actual problem-solving. Turns out you've been engaging in sophistry.

I can play that game too...

Define "meaning".
First you must explain your concept of "Define".

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:51 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:39 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Thu Jul 11, 2019 3:18 pm
Let's just say that if everyone became Smarter then maybe someone would be able to answer the Question. In any case being Smart is not relevant to the Question: How does Neural Activity produce Conscious Experience?
Steve, only a concious entity knowledgeable of it's own existence can ask a question, so the only real question is where does that knowledge of one's own existence come from?

There is apparent knowledge, but what exactly is knowledge, what is a concept? knowledge is conceptual.

So really, that's the only hard problem, the problem of where does knowledge come from?

Notice consciousness doesn't need a knowledge to BE ...so then when the question arises ''who is being'' ? that question triggers a whole other realm of knowledge upon what is essentially this immediate not-knowing unknown BEINGNESS one with itself...

So knowledge then is just 'thoughts' externalised into things upon nothing.


Therefore, questions can only be answered by the knowledge that is already available, the knowledge that we already have.

Questions pertain to knowledge, if there was no knowledge a question wouldn't even arise, so the answer to every question must already exist within the knowledge we already have.

So where there is knowledge there is the answer to every question already available.

So Consciousness is not really a hard problem is it?

An example of already knowing the answers to all our questions..goes like this...

There is a spontaneous demand to know ''What it Consciousness''?

That is a ''thought'' arising in you. And you are aware of that ''thought''

The ''thought'' goes something like this...

Who am I?

Another thought answers:

"I don't know any more who or what I am" ?

Another thought asks:

"Is there any way for thought to clear up this apparent problem?"

Who can answer this question?

A 'sense' (feeling/idea) of "impending transformation" arises.

As it arises, so it is experienced/known.

This 'sense' is senseless, unknowing

That which experiences the 'sense of impending transformation' is never transformed.

BECAUSE CONSCIOUSNESS IS NOT AN EXPERIENCE

You cannot experience what you already are.

You are consciousness experiencing itself as the many of the ONE

.

.

There is no concious entity inside your body looking to see if it can see it's own consciousness...but you Steve insist on looking for what's already looking, and when what is looking is looking for what is already looking inside of what it's looking at..that's the only big problem there is here...but then it's not even a problem there because there is no looker present in what is being looked at...you see?

.

In looking, one can only see the object of looking....the object becomes the seen and the seen is the looked upon...but there is no seer inside any object...the object is inside the seer that cannot be looked at.....do you understand that Steve?

.
I fully expect that the answer to the Hard Problem will involve some sort of understanding of a Conscious Self concept. I also already understand that the Redness Experience is part of what I actually am. I can say that I am the redness and I am all the other Colors. I am the Light that I have always Seen. But I still don't know what the Redness Experience is or in general what the Light Experience is. So I don't know what part of me is. It's not enough to say: It Just Is.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:08 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:40 pm
First you must explain your concept of "Define".
We cannot define anything precisely. If we attempt to, we get into that paralysis of thought that comes to philosophers, who sit opposite each other, one saying to the other, "You don't know what you are talking about!". The second one says, "What do you mean by know? What do you mean by talking? What do you mean by you?" --Richard Feynman

The concept of dependency is foreign to you.

You can't answer the question because asking questions depends ON consciousness.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:15 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:51 pm
I fully expect that the answer to the Hard Problem will involve some sort of understanding of a Conscious Self concept.
The only hard part is thinking consciousness can be detected or looked at. That's like expecting a banana to be able to look at itself and say hey there's me being a banana..can you see that you would have to be outside of yourself to be able to look at yourself. I don't think that is a possiblity do you?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:51 pm
I also already understand that the Redness Experience is part of what I actually am. I can say that I am the redness and I am all the other Colors. I am the Light that I have always Seen.
Great, and that's all there is to understand. You are consciousness including the conceptual concepts known to consciousness.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:51 pm
But I still don't know what the Redness Experience is or in general what the Light Experience is. So I don't know what part of me is. It's not enough to say: It Just Is.
There is no part of what is always whole. The mind divides what is always whole via identification with the concept it knows which is already couched within the whole.

The Redness Experience is a known concept of Consciousness going live right here and now....the Redness Experience is knowledge of it already known within you via your own conception of it.

Why isn't that enough?

You are consciousness ..you don't have to know you are. You are.

Trying to know you are is like the sun trying to shine on itself.

You can't know what a conscious experience is because there is no you to experience, the you is the experience.

.

For example ...you can look at your hand and say that is a hand...so what is knowing that is a hand? ..does the hand know it's a hand?

No, nothing aka consciousness knows it's a hand...the hand is simply a concept known in consciousness.

You cannot look at that which is looking at the hand, for the looker, there is only the known hand...but the hand is in no looker and there is no looker inside the hand.



.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:35 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:08 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:40 pm
First you must explain your concept of "Define".
We cannot define anything precisely. If we attempt to, we get into that paralysis of thought that comes to philosophers, who sit opposite each other, one saying to the other, "You don't know what you are talking about!". The second one says, "What do you mean by know? What do you mean by talking? What do you mean by you?" --Richard Feynman

The concept of dependency is foreign to you.

You can't answer the question because asking questions depends ON consciousness.
I will have to understand Consciousness using Consciousness. That is a given, and doesn't mean that it cannot be done.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Sculptor » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:43 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:07 pm
Scientists can describe the Neural Activity that occurs in the Brain when we See. But they seem to be completely puzzled by the Conscious Visual experience that we have that is correlated with the Neural Activity. Incredibly, some even come to the conclusion that the Conscious experience is not even necessary!
This is false. Please cite ONE example!
They can not find the Conscious experience in the Neurons so the experience must not have any function in the Visual process. They believe that the Neural Activity is sufficient for us to move around in the world without bumping into things. This is insane denial of the obvious purpose for Visual Consciousness. The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world. Neural Activity is not enough. We would be blind without the Conscious Visual experience. The Conscious Visual experience contains vast amounts of information about the external world all packed up into a single thing.
We can do better than that. We can walk and run and drive. Sportsmen can hit a tennis ball with a racket without being conscious of any of it. I can run over the tasks of the day, think about the food I had last night, listen to music and all whilst being completely unconscious about the fact that I am driving the car to work at the same time.


Scientists should not disregard the Conscious Visual experience.
No they would not. Not one of them.
It's just another type of Data that can be analyzed. We should call it Conscious Data. We use and analyze this Conscious Visual Data all the time without realizing it. For example when I reach for my coffee mug I have a Conscious Visual experience where I See my hand moving toward the coffee mug. If My hand is off track I sense this in the Conscious Visual experience and adjust the movement of my hand. If I did not have the Conscious Visual experience I would not be able to pick up my coffee mug, or at least it would be much more difficult with just Neural Activity. So the Conscious Visual experience is just Data that helps us interact with the world. This Conscious Visual Data is absolutely necessary for us to function. Similar arguments can be made for the Conscious Auditory experience, the Conscious Smell experience, the Conscious Taste experience, and the Conscious Touch experience. All these experiences are just a type of Data that our Conscious Minds can analyze.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:47 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:15 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:51 pm
I fully expect that the answer to the Hard Problem will involve some sort of understanding of a Conscious Self concept.
The only hard part is thinking consciousness can be detected or looked at. That's like expecting a banana to be able to look at itself and say hey there's me being a banana..can you see that you would have to be outside of yourself to be able to look at yourself. I don't think that is a possiblity do you?
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:51 pm
I also already understand that the Redness Experience is part of what I actually am. I can say that I am the redness and I am all the other Colors. I am the Light that I have always Seen.
Great, and that's all there is to understand. You are consciousness including the conceptual concepts known to consciousness.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:51 pm
But I still don't know what the Redness Experience is or in general what the Light Experience is. So I don't know what part of me is. It's not enough to say: It Just Is.
There is no part of what is always whole. The mind divides what is always whole via identification with the concept it knows which is already couched within the whole.

The Redness Experience is a known concept of Consciousness going live right here and now....the Redness Experience is knowledge of it already known within you via your own conception of it.

Why isn't that enough?

You are consciousness ..you don't have to know you are. You are.

Trying to know you are is like the sun trying to shine on itself.

You can't know what a conscious experience is because there is no you to experience, the you is the experience.

.

For example ...you can look at your hand and say that is a hand...so what is knowing that is a hand? ..does the hand know it's a hand?

No, nothing aka consciousness knows it's a hand...the hand is simply a concept known in consciousness.

You cannot look at that which is looking at the hand, for the looker, there is only the known hand...but the hand is in no looker and there is no looker inside the hand.



.
I am an Engineer so I have to know How everything works. I don't know How Consciousness works so that is Why I pursue it. It is what I do. If the Oneness thing is the answer then I don't understand that yet. Everything about my existence tells me I am a Separate distinct Consciousness in a Universe of Separate Distinct Consciousnesses. If all Consciousness was One you would think that we would be like the Borg Collective on Star Trek. We would hear the thoughts of everybody in the Collective as a whole. The only thoughts in my head are Mine. I cannot perceive your thoughts or anyone else's thoughts.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:55 pm

Sculptor wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:43 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:07 pm
Scientists can describe the Neural Activity that occurs in the Brain when we See. But they seem to be completely puzzled by the Conscious Visual experience that we have that is correlated with the Neural Activity. Incredibly, some even come to the conclusion that the Conscious experience is not even necessary!
This is false. Please cite ONE example!
Anyone that espouses the idea of Epiphenominalism is saying that the Conscious Aspect is just some non functional activity of the Neurons that has no real purpose. Dennett in particular has said that Consciousness is just an Illusion although lately he has walked that back a bit. He definitely says that Consciousness is not necessary in Machine AI. This lack of understanding the necessity of Consciousness in Machines is revealing with respect to his lack of understanding the Primacy of Consciosuness in the Human Machine.

Sculptor wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:43 pm
They can not find the Conscious experience in the Neurons so the experience must not have any function in the Visual process. They believe that the Neural Activity is sufficient for us to move around in the world without bumping into things. This is insane denial of the obvious purpose for Visual Consciousness. The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world. Neural Activity is not enough. We would be blind without the Conscious Visual experience. The Conscious Visual experience contains vast amounts of information about the external world all packed up into a single thing.
We can do better than that. We can walk and run and drive. Sportsmen can hit a tennis ball with a racket without being conscious of any of it. I can run over the tasks of the day, think about the food I had last night, listen to music and all whilst being completely unconscious about the fact that I am driving the car to work at the same time.
You are simply confusing your instant by instant usage of your Conscious Visual Experience with you Memory of using your Conscious Visual Experience when you were driving the car or hitting the tennis ball. You would not be Driving or Hitting tennis balls without your Visual experience.


Sculptor wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:43 pm


Scientists should not disregard the Conscious Visual experience.
No they would not. Not one of them.

It's just another type of Data that can be analyzed. We should call it Conscious Data. We use and analyze this Conscious Visual Data all the time without realizing it. For example when I reach for my coffee mug I have a Conscious Visual experience where I See my hand moving toward the coffee mug. If My hand is off track I sense this in the Conscious Visual experience and adjust the movement of my hand. If I did not have the Conscious Visual experience I would not be able to pick up my coffee mug, or at least it would be much more difficult with just Neural Activity. So the Conscious Visual experience is just Data that helps us interact with the world. This Conscious Visual Data is absolutely necessary for us to function. Similar arguments can be made for the Conscious Auditory experience, the Conscious Smell experience, the Conscious Taste experience, and the Conscious Touch experience. All these experiences are just a type of Data that our Conscious Minds can analyze.
Scientists generally reject the Primacy of Consciousness.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:01 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:47 pm
I don't know How Consciousness works so that is Why I pursue it. It is what I do. If the Oneness thing is the answer then I don't understand that yet.
I understand that Steve ..but the truth is only you will figure this out for yourself. There is nothing another person can say to you that will alter your own mind, your mind is the only tool available to you, so what you are trying to pursue can only be comprehended by you, and that any conclusion in regards to what you are looking for can and will only come to you there, because you are the source of all your own knowledge.
It will not come from any other source outside of you in the thoughts of others. I get that. Other peoples ideas are mere breadcrumbs of what's already inside you too... ultimately, you are already the whole loaf, it's all within you, because you are not in the universe, the universe is in you.

I'm not trying to put words in anyones mouth here, we are only ever talking to others (ourselves) from our own direct experience here. We are ultimately listening to our own echo's and attaching to thoughts that literally come out of nowhere and are made of the consciousness that knows them. Think about that, every other person is a thought occuring here in you.... and that goes for every other person, they are thinking about other people existing from their point of conscious awareness there in them....and the reason that is possible is because the consciousness in you here is the same conscousness in the other there...and that every thing, every thought, is made of the consciousness that knows them. For there can be no thought without a consciousness to be conscious of them. Both consciousness and thought must be the same thing. That must mean every material thing, aka a thought is made out of the thing that knows the thought, and that which knows a thought is consciousness.
We cannot know the thought of another, because the other is a thought here in you, ''ANOTHER'' is just a thought KNOWN here in you, you being consciousness here...there is no there in here. There is only here.

Consciousness knows every thought, but can thought know consciousness? ..see nowhere that the question (''can thought know consciousness'')? ..is like asking ''can a tree know it is conscious'' ? or can any known concept be aware of itself?...''can the grass be aware it is grass''?
Do you see a problem with the idea of concepts knowing they are aware?



So back to my own unique descriptive experience of what is consciousness.. continues as follows...

The ''HOW'' of how concepts are known as observed by consciousness can't be answered. It'll always come down to the first cause conundrum, in that what caused the first cause to then be the cause of all other causes add infinitum. We can observe what causes an object to function in the way it does by examining another object and seeing that other object there is what's making this object here to function...and so on...in that a thing can only be known in relation to some other thing by association in effect.
In so much as every effect is the action of it's prior cause, and that cause is an effects of it's prior cause which is only an effect of it's cause...so here as an observer, we can see only effects....and that an effect is only an appearance effecting another appearance add infinitum...we can examine effects forever as the observer, attaching labels to them via thought anothe effective appearance...but we can never get to the first cause of the causer of all effects aka the actual observer...because maybe, just maybe consciousness is primary.


SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:47 pm
Everything about my existence tells me I am a Separate distinct Consciousness in a Universe of Separate Distinct Consciousnesses. If all Consciousness was One you would think that we would be like the Borg Collective on Star Trek. We would hear the thoughts of everybody in the Collective as a whole. The only thoughts in my head are Mine. I cannot perceive your thoughts or anyone else's thoughts.
The thought ''my head'' is a localised thought appearing in what thought thinks is this localised body here. But the thought KNOWN HERE is another thought thinking it is localised here in a body, when in truth no thought is ever localised in a body, that's just another thought...A body is just another non-localised free thought appearing from NOWHERE...nowhere is everywhere all at once one without a second, meaning non-local appearing to be local as thought.

In truth, thoughts are inside no head, they are non-localised and belong to no you with a separate head. The you with a separate head is another thought, also, the thought that there are others with their own separate head of thoughts is a thought too happening only here in you.

There is only here.

Here is everywhere all at once, here doesn't move, here is the silent still empty centre, the source of all known thought. That is what consciousness is.

Thoughts seem to jump around from head to head, appearing to be on the inside of multiple other heads...but even that is a thought appearing here in you. You IS SOURCE CONSCIOUSNESS. That never moved an inch, it's unborn and cannot die.

YOU are that.

.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Sculptor » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:22 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:55 pm
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:43 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:07 pm
Scientists can describe the Neural Activity that occurs in the Brain when we See. But they seem to be completely puzzled by the Conscious Visual experience that we have that is correlated with the Neural Activity. Incredibly, some even come to the conclusion that the Conscious experience is not even necessary!
This is false. Please cite ONE example!
Anyone that espouses the idea of Epiphenominalism is saying that the Conscious Aspect is just some non functional activity of the Neurons that has no real purpose. Dennett in particular has said that Consciousness is just an Illusion although lately he has walked that back a bit. He definitely says that Consciousness is not necessary in Machine AI. This lack of understanding the necessity of Consciousness in Machines is revealing with respect to his lack of understanding the Primacy of Consciosuness in the Human Machine.
Please cite ONE example!
Sculptor wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:43 pm
They can not find the Conscious experience in the Neurons so the experience must not have any function in the Visual process. They believe that the Neural Activity is sufficient for us to move around in the world without bumping into things. This is insane denial of the obvious purpose for Visual Consciousness. The Conscious Visual experience is the thing that allows us to move around in the world. Neural Activity is not enough. We would be blind without the Conscious Visual experience. The Conscious Visual experience contains vast amounts of information about the external world all packed up into a single thing.
We can do better than that. We can walk and run and drive. Sportsmen can hit a tennis ball with a racket without being conscious of any of it. I can run over the tasks of the day, think about the food I had last night, listen to music and all whilst being completely unconscious about the fact that I am driving the car to work at the same time.
You are simply confusing your instant by instant usage of your Conscious Visual Experience with you Memory of using your Conscious Visual Experience when you were driving the car or hitting the tennis ball. You would not be Driving or Hitting tennis balls without your Visual experience.


Sculptor wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:43 pm


Scientists should not disregard the Conscious Visual experience.
No they would not. Not one of them.

It's just another type of Data that can be analyzed. We should call it Conscious Data. We use and analyze this Conscious Visual Data all the time without realizing it. For example when I reach for my coffee mug I have a Conscious Visual experience where I See my hand moving toward the coffee mug. If My hand is off track I sense this in the Conscious Visual experience and adjust the movement of my hand. If I did not have the Conscious Visual experience I would not be able to pick up my coffee mug, or at least it would be much more difficult with just Neural Activity. So the Conscious Visual experience is just Data that helps us interact with the world. This Conscious Visual Data is absolutely necessary for us to function. Similar arguments can be made for the Conscious Auditory experience, the Conscious Smell experience, the Conscious Taste experience, and the Conscious Touch experience. All these experiences are just a type of Data that our Conscious Minds can analyze.
Scientists generally reject the Primacy of Consciousness.
Name ONE example.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:15 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:47 pm
I am an Engineer so I have to know How everything works.
I am an ''Engineer'' is Consciousness aware of itself as a concept it has created within it's own mind. The ''I am'' is Consciousness prior to that which it is aware of which is it's own mind-made concept of itself...in the form of '' I am an ''Engineer'' aka an object in mind.
Consciousness has no form until it creates one out of it's own known concept of itself..in this conception. Tis all a mental phenomena!! NOT PHYSICAL.

Conscious/mind can study how it's own made concepts work..it can be observed and known how each concept effects another concept in this conception of consciousness...for example: The engine of a car can be known how each part works and how it is put together because there is already an intelligence within the observer itself...the engine of a car is known to work via the conscious seer observing it's own mental concepts in action...it does this on conctact with it's own known concepts...as consciousness it is only observing itself.. as and through each and every concept known only to it.

''I am an engineer'' is a concept known to Consciousness only, the concept is not known by the concept ''engineer'' thoughts can't know what a thought is without creating a thought about it..the thought never gets to the actual maker of thought?????

In this sense, the material concept (object known) must be made of the same substance of that of it's knower. . aka consciousness.

The problem with consciousness wanting to know how consciousness works is a problem for the mind because it can be seen by itself to be already working, but it cannot see what is working it... Therefore, consciousness cannot know how it is working no more that the concepts it knows.. know how they are working in the sense that a car is not aware it is a working model that can travel on roads from place to place, nor can a car engine know how it is working ? ..is a gear stick aware it is being moved into lower or higher gears according to the speed the car is moving? No, concepts know nothing, they are already being known by consciousness that cannot know how it itself works, it can only know how it's own mind made concepts work.

Objects know nothing of their existence, concepts are already being known by the ONLY knowing there is which is concsciousness.

You are consciousness knowing every known CONCEPT as and through their conception / within the MIND aka the perceiver..only the mind is born, not consciousness. The mind is the realm of known thought...aka spacetime duality an appearance of nondual consciousness.

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:47 pm
I don't know How Consciousness works so that is Why I pursue it.
The one persuing consciousness is consciousness...not the concept it knows aka a human brain.

.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:48 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
You are consciousness knowing every known CONCEPT as and through their conception / within the MIND aka the perceiver .. only the mind is born not consciousness . The mind is the realm of known thought ... aka spacetime duality an appearance of nondual consciousness
Was my mind born out of the eternal consciousness that has apparently always existed
I dont know because I cannot perceive this eternal consciousness with my actual mind
I only know of my own existence since I was born but since I am eventually going to die nothing really matters to me
And when I am dead I will not be able to experience or contemplate the eternal consciousness if it is actually true
Existence is eternal but whether it is the same as eternal consciousness I cannot say and probably will never know

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:47 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:48 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
You are consciousness knowing every known CONCEPT as and through their conception / within the MIND aka the perceiver .. only the mind is born not consciousness . The mind is the realm of known thought ... aka spacetime duality an appearance of nondual consciousness
Was my mind born out of the eternal consciousness that has apparently always existed
I dont know because I cannot perceive this eternal consciousness with my actual mind
I only know of my own existence since I was born but since I am eventually going to die nothing really matters to me
And when I am dead I will not be able to experience or contemplate the eternal consciousness if it is actually true
Existence is eternal but whether it is the same as eternal consciousness I cannot say and probably will never know
The localised mind is a temporal finite perception within non-localised eternally perceiving mind...aka SOURCE

Source is unborn, it is the womb/void of all apparent birth/creation and cannot be negated, source has always existed.Existence existing now means existence must have always existed for how can existence not exist, how can there be a non-existing existence?

The apparent you is a perception, it is knowledge known by source only, perceptions are born and then die within source the unborn undying eternal.

Eternity cannot be perceived all at once, a perception is a fragmented frame of referrence of the perceiver perceiving reality frame by frame in space-time duality the realm that stops everything aka infinity from happening all at once.

All concepts are known as perceived aka knowledge known by no knower aka no perceiver aka infinity aka eternal consciousness...including the concept consciousness.

A perception is known as it is perceived, but that which is perceived cannot know it's perceiver because it has no existence apart from the perceiver.

Life is a dream dreamt by no one.

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Skepdick
Posts: 1493
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:16 am

Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:57 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:35 pm
I will have to understand Consciousness using Consciousness. That is a given, and doesn't mean that it cannot be done.
Maybe it can be done. Maybe it can't be done.

Before you understand consciousness using consciousness. Why don't you try to understand understanding using consciousness?

Surely that's a mandatory pre-requisite. Because, given your state off mental muddle it doesn't seem to me that you understand what it means to understand.

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