Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Arising_uk » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:48 am

Well you surely can't see your own face but look down and around and you can see the facts of your body. Listen and you can hear the fact of your voice, heart and breath. Feel and you can have the fact of its weight and pains. So quite a few facts in fact.

Skepdick
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:35 am
Yes, dualism is a fact. Reality is nought but one idea appearing as mulitple ideas...including the concept (dualism)

Where on earth do you think ideas come from at all? ...
Where do you think the concept of an idea came from?
What about the concept of a concept?

The place where those things come from... go and understand how it works.
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:35 am
You have no knowledge of any fact or of yourself or what you are or what you look like without using a mirror to reflect it back to you.
Then you have not heard of introspection. No mirror can help you with that.

On the quest of understanding reality, perhaps you should first understand the very instrument through which you perceive reality?
Last edited by Skepdick on Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:48 am
Well you surely can't see your own face but look down and around and you can see the facts of your body. Listen and you can hear the fact of your voice, heart and breath. Feel and you can have the fact of its weight and pains. So quite a few facts in fact.

Thr body is the mirror informing the imageless mirror what it is.

The body is being looked upon...the body is not looking, it can't know or see anything because it's already a concept known.

.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:43 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:35 am
Yes, dualism is a fact. Reality is nought but one idea appearing as mulitple ideas...including the concept (dualism)

Where on earth do you think ideas come from at all? ...
Where do you think the concept of an idea came from?
What about the concept of a concept?
An idea is a concept known..it is the conception of a thing that was previously unknown, unconceived.

How is the concept ''conception'' conceived? in other words how is the unborn born?



You say:
Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am
The place where those things come from... go and understand how it works.
I don't know how it works. I only know it does work.
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:35 am
Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am
You have no knowledge of any fact or of yourself or what you are or what you look like without using a mirror to reflect it back to you.
Then you have not heard of introspection. No mirror can help you with that.
Introspection the act of looking within oneself.
How does that work ?
When looking in I cannot see the seer...I see no thing...I can only see the seen ( a thing)..aka the external 'thing' of the internal 'no thing'

Notice here, the unseen seer is inseparable from what is it looking at the seen. There is no division there. Division is simply a mental idea...imposed upon the unknown unseen - it's an artificially imposed impression a conceptual image upon the imageless.
Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:09 am
On the quest of understanding reality, perhaps you should first understand the very instrument through which you perceive reality?
The concept ''instrument'' is a perception. A perception is the perceived in the same instant, that which is percieved cannot perceive anything.

You are attempting to get a peek up your own ass, like trying to jump over your own shadow it's a pointless exercise. There really is nothing to see or to understand about reality, and that is all that can be understood about it...the rest is just imagination.

The conceptually conceived instrument of knowing, that which is known - cannot be known by the instrument aka the conception of itself...because there is no such thing as giving birth to your own unborn self...except using the mirror trick...the imagined self, the image in the imageless mirror...appearing as two, but really ONE inseparable (no)thing appearing as some thing.

The mirror has no image of itself, it has to be empty in order to reflect ....the mirror is just another terminology used to replace the concept of consciousness (aware you are aware) already couched within awareness itself....as I've already explained to you millions of times to you already which you don't seem to want to accept...but there is nothing I can do about that...

The fact is...No conception of a knower ever took place. Because 'knower knowing and known' are ONE...in the same instant...the knower is a fictional character, in that only that which is fiction can give birth to non-fiction...and there is no such idea as a non-fiction...fiction is fiction, you cannot not have a non fiction fiction...non-fiction is fiction...So no thing is Real.



.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:16 pm

Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:43 pm
I don't know how it works. I only know it does work.
OK, then how do you improve/tweak it in those instances where it doesn't work?

And if you can't tweak/improve it - then how do you learn?

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:21 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:45 am
RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:42 am
If one is going to assert that there is some kind of process that produces some specific result, what that process is and how it produces the result must be described, else it is just a fancy way of saying, "it happens somehow." In other words, it's just made up.
That's not how physicists think about it.
Since when are physicists in the business of explaining philosophical psychology?

Different phenomena require different methods.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:28 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:02 am
'Color' happens in the brain. Science has already settled this.
Believe that if you like. I know it's not true.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:29 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:21 pm
Since when are physicists in the business of explaining philosophical psychology?

Different phenomena require different methods.
All methods require minds.

Can you explain how minds understand?

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Skepdick » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:29 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:28 pm
Believe that if you like. I know it's not true.
OK. I guess the scientists are all in on the conspiracy.

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=e ... macy&btnG=

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by RCSaunders » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:01 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:29 pm
Can you explain how minds understand?
Yes!

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Dontaskme
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:47 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 2:16 pm
Dontaskme wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:43 pm
I don't know how it works. I only know it does work.
OK, then how do you improve/tweak it in those instances where it doesn't work?

And if you can't tweak/improve it - then how do you learn?
I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or referring to.

.

SteveKlinko
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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:10 pm

RCSaunders wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:42 am
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm
RCSaunders wrote:
Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:13 am


You were doing pretty well until you got to, "we never really see an object."

Conscious is not a physical attribute. We can be directly conscious, that is, consciously perceive, physical attributes, but cannot perceive consciousness itself. We know we are conscious because we are just as we know we can see, not by seeing our seeing, but because we do see.

We do see not some physical things because they have not perceivable attributes, like color, which is why we cannot see the wind or air, but we can perceive them by feeling them. We cannot "see" gravity, but we can certainly, "feel," weight and see things fall, and we do see the space between objects by their relationship in our field of vision. Did you forget that perception is not only seeing, but feeling which is how we consciously perceive pain and emotion, and touch is one of the direct conscious perceptions and it is actual physical things we feel by touch.

Of course we really see objects. What other way could one be conscious of their existence?
We actually don't See Objects directly. Instead we See a Surrogate for the Object. That Surrogate is created by the Brain/Mind.
If one is going to assert that there is some kind of process that produces some specific result, what that process is and how it produces the result must be described, else it is just a fancy way of saying, "it happens somehow." In other words, it's just made up.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm
The Red, for example, that you think you See does not Exist in the Physical World. The Redness of the Red is a Conscious Phenomenon as opposed to a Physical Phenomenon. The Redness exists only in your Mind.
This an old and very bad mistake in philosophy, even Locke was deceived by it.

If red is not an attribute (quality) of physical things, why would the brain make it up. What possible use could consciousness make of something that does not exist in the physical world? But color is not invented in the brain or anywhere else, it is a real attribute of the physical phenomena that is seen.

The color of an entity is determined by it's nature, just as it's shape is, or it's weight is. An entity's color is determined by those characteristics that determine the wave-lengths of the light it will reflect, transmit, or emit, all measurable characteristics, by the way.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm
We have never Seen the Physical Light that is out there in the Physical World.
Who is "we?" Speak for yourself. I've seen light since the day I first opened my eyes.
SteveKlinko wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 4:24 pm
We have
... We are the Conscious Light that we have always Seen.
It is not true, but if it were, you would be able to explain how you know this. Why do you believe this?
You must be a Direct Realist.

There are several facts about our Experience of Light that shows it is an internal Conscious Mind Phenomenon:

1) You See Light in your Dreams.
2) Rubbing your Eyes can produce the Experience of Lights.
3) After Images of the scene you were looking at when you close your Eyes are Light

These examples are undeniably internal Conscious Lights and have nothing to do with external Physical Lights. These Phenomena show that there is indeed something in the Brain/Mind mechanism that generates these Lights. Science does not know how these Lights are generated yet. All Science knows is that there is Neural Activity and then there are Conscious Light Experiences. These Lights are of course not Physical Lights but these Lights are Conscious Lights that only exist in your Mind. These Lights are internal and are part of what you are. It is undeniable that you are these Lights.

So given that the Brain/Mind can generate these Lights it is an easy next step to understand that when you are Awake and looking at a scene that your Brain/Mind is using this Conscious Light generation mechanism (Retinal excitation driving Neural Activity) to generate the Light that you See. You never See the external World Physical Light but you only See your Internally generated Conscious Light. This internal Conscious Light is a Surrogate for the External Physical Light. You think you are Seeing the External Physical Light because your Internal Conscious Light is Correlated with the Physical Light. The only Light that you have ever Seen is your own internal Conscious Light. You have never Seen Physical Light. The External Physical Light doesn't Look like anything. You have always been fooled.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by RCSaunders » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:35 pm

SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:10 pm
... You never See the external World ...
Believe that if you want, but it is wrong to make declarations about what other people's experiences are. I'm willing to believe your entire experience is nothing more than an delusion created by our brain if you insist on it.

I know there is an, "external," world because I see, hear, feel, taste, and smell it. You cannot know there is an external world because you say your world is a big fiction created by the brain, so how do you know everything else you think you know isn't also an illusion created by your brain?

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by SteveKlinko » Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:33 am

RCSaunders wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:35 pm
SteveKlinko wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:10 pm
... You never See the external World ...
Believe that if you want, but it is wrong to make declarations about what other people's experiences are. I'm willing to believe your entire experience is nothing more than an delusion created by our brain if you insist on it.

I know there is an, "external," world because I see, hear, feel, taste, and smell it. You cannot know there is an external world because you say your world is a big fiction created by the brain, so how do you know everything else you think you know isn't also an illusion created by your brain?
Only the 3 listed Phenomena are entirely internal Experiences. I never said that there was no External World. For example when you are Awake and looking at a scene of objects in the External World the Brian/Mind mechanism creates the Internal Conscious Light that lets you See the scene. The Internal Conscious Light scene is Correlated with the External Physical World scene. Because of this Correlation you understandably think you are Directly Seeing the objects in the scene. This Internal Conscious Light Visual scene that you See is how you Detect the External World. You don't See the External World like you think you do, but rather you are always Seeing your Internal Brain/Mind generated Conscious Light representation of it.

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Re: Insane Denial Of Conscious Experience

Post by Dontaskme » Thu Jun 27, 2019 8:44 am

SteveKlinko wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:33 am
Only the 3 listed Phenomena are entirely internal Experiences. I never said that there was no External World. For example when you are Awake and looking at a scene of objects in the External World the Brian/Mind mechanism creates the Internal Conscious Light that lets you See the scene. The Internal Conscious Light scene is Correlated with the External Physical World scene. Because of this Correlation you understandably think you are Directly Seeing the objects in the scene. This Internal Conscious Light Visual scene that you See is how you Detect the External World. You don't See the External World like you think you do, but rather you are always Seeing your Internal Brain/Mind generated Conscious Light representation of it.
Very good...I totally understand and get that description, well said.

It's almost like the brain is literally living as and through itself only ..here now nowhere as this manifested world...there is no ownership or copyright of the brain, there is only the brain braining...the brain is not on the inside of a 'someone' nor is it on the outside of a 'someone'...because there is no 'middle man' experiencing what is essentially ONLY LIGHT manifesting ALL AT ONCE...so even the appearance of a shadow in the form of a ''body'' is nought but the LIGHT. Colour aka constrast is nought but the appearance of the same one invisible LIGHT fragmented into many aspects of the same one LIGHT

Light cannot experience itself as a shadow, it can only reflect a CONtrast aka a representation from within it's own self that is not an experience.
LIGHT IS this IMMEDIATE presentation, never a representation, except in this CONception.

Any known SELF is a mirage brought about by imageless images reflecting back upon itself..The manifest world of sound and light is meer shadow of itself..the colourless world of colour...known only by association via contrast in this artificial conception of LIGHT itself.

This IMMEDIATE presentation cannot be known or seen...only the representation of what cannot be known or seen is known and seen.
AKA.. a mirage.

.

If the brain is the source of consciousness and the external world is known and seen, then that external world is also the internal world simultaneously. In other words there is no exact actual location of consciousness at all. It's everywhere at once one without a second.

.

Steve, when I read your posts about consciousness they help me better my own understanding of what consciousness means to me, so thank you.

.

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