Does absolute truth exist?

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surreptitious57
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:39 pm

I would say that absolute truth does exist but it will remain for ever unknown to us
As we just do not have the capacity to understand anything in such profound terms

commonsense
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by commonsense » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:26 pm

How would we know if absolute truth exists, anyway?

surreptitious57
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:12 pm

That is also another reason for thinking it cannot be revealed to us as how could we be certain
Because we would not have any rigorous means for determining whether or not it was absolute

Systematic
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Systematic » Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:15 am

HexHammer wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:14 pm
Systematic wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:18 am
I think that you may have hit on a good point, HexHammer. We are all retards. There is a limit of human understanding. That could lead us in a few directions.

Namely, we are too retarded to understand absolute truth; or we are retarded when we assume that absolute truth exists; or we are too retarded to separate science from the infallibility of a perfect god.

I don't think that reading up on science will cure our retardation, but thank you for reminding us.
If you were smart, you would be millionaire, which you are not ..........kkthnxbye!
HexHammer, you're not making sense. I think you might need to talk to someone.

Systematic
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Systematic » Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:53 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:12 pm
That is also another reason for thinking it cannot be revealed to us as how could we be certain
Because we would not have any rigorous means for determining whether or not it was absolute
There are practices that work in many situations. Perhaps that could be a starting point. Practical knowledge is the least likely to be false, because humanity is geared to survive. Survival requires practical knowledge to be accurate, at least in the short term. However, since the knowledge is also involved in making money, it is often hidden as trade secrets.

Figuring out all of the possible reasons why practical knowledge works would be a logical next step. When taken to the next level of abstraction (i.e. beyond the practical), there is a chance of erroneous assumption. Why people do the things that they do is much harder to pinpoint than the practices themselves. So several hypothetical assertions should be made, and subsequently, checked for validity.

Skepdick
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Skepdick » Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:03 am

Systematic wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:53 am
Figuring out all of the possible reasons why practical knowledge works would be a logical next step. When taken to the next level of abstraction (i.e. beyond the practical), there is a chance of erroneous assumption. Why people do the things that they do is much harder to pinpoint than the practices themselves. So several hypothetical assertions should be made, and subsequently, checked for validity.
The reason why practical knowledge works is trivial. Survivorship bias.

When your knowledge is in direct contact with the ground you have an objective selection mechanism which weeds out all the bullshit over time.

Theoretical fields do not have such a bullshit filter - they are castles in the sky. Philosophy suffers from this tremendously.

Systematic
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Systematic » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:00 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:03 am

The reason why practical knowledge works is trivial. Survivorship bias.

When your knowledge is in direct contact with the ground you have an objective selection mechanism which weeds out all the bullshit over time.

Theoretical fields do not have such a bullshit filter - they are castles in the sky. Philosophy suffers from this tremendously.
The reason that practical knowledge is honed may be survival, but the theory may still be relevant. The theory that fits with practice is what I'm suggesting.
Perhaps even trying to practice the theories would shed some light on why they are incorrect/correct. Or at least, we could question what would happen if the theory were tried, working our way to why it is not in practice.

Skepdick
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Skepdick » Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:19 pm

Systematic wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:00 pm
The reason that practical knowledge is honed may be survival, but the theory may still be relevant. The theory that fits with practice is what I'm suggesting.
People will keep writing theories. And who's to stop them? But the theory that best fits with practice is the theory that's written by the practitioner himself (if the practitioner was to write such a theory), but then all theories will forever be plagued by the short-comings of language. Incompleteness, inconsistency, ambiguity, contextually.

In theory there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is. Some call it a cliche. Some call it wisdom.
Systematic wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:00 pm
Perhaps even trying to practice the theories would shed some light on why they are incorrect/correct.
For you to practice a theory you must necessarily understand it verbatim to the way author intended it to be understood.

If you've ever written complex software application where you get to explain to a machine EXACTLY what to do (step by step) and the machine obeys your instructions as precisely as your every intention, then you will soon come to realize that your instructions are giving are nowhere near as clear, or as consice as you might think they are.

The theories don't work because reality is complex. And very tricky to narrate.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:46 pm

"Does absolute truth exist?"

Yes, they are called the Tautologies but they are generally not that useful outside of Logic.

Systematic
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Systematic » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:00 pm

Skepdick wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:19 pm
For you to practice a theory you must necessarily understand it verbatim to the way author intended it to be understood.

If you've ever written complex software application where you get to explain to a machine EXACTLY what to do (step by step) and the machine obeys your instructions as precisely as your every intention, then you will soon come to realize that your instructions are giving are nowhere near as clear, or as consice as you might think they are.

The theories don't work because reality is complex. And very tricky to narrate.
Computers are not capable of doing anything without a program. But people can learn from experience, and they can apply theory through syllogisms. It's a kind of programming that is quasi-innate.

Skepdick
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Skepdick » Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:40 pm

Systematic wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:00 pm
Computers are not capable of doing anything without a program.
Neither are humans. Toddlers would die if they weren't programmed to breathe autonomously, cry when their needs aren't being met etc...
Systematic wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:00 pm
But people can learn from experience,
So can computers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning
Systematic wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:00 pm
and they can apply theory through syllogisms.
What are algorithms if not syllogisms?
Systematic wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:00 pm
It's a kind of programming that is quasi-innate.
Precisely. Programming/instincts/tacit knowledge.

All different ways to talk about the same phenomena.

AlexW
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by AlexW » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:16 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:39 pm
I would say that absolute truth does exist but it will remain for ever unknown to us
As we just do not have the capacity to understand anything in such profound terms
For something to be "absolute" it would have to have no opposite - it would have to be all encompassing, infinite and eternal.
It would have to be always here/now - it could not be anywhere else as otherwise it would not be absolute truth/being/whatever.
Thus: If this world/universe is composed of separate parts that exist in their own right then there is no such thing as absolute truth (it can only be absolute if it has no relation to anything else - there is only it).
On the other hand, if separation is not more than a belief/conceptual overlay, if there is only this undivided presence/being, then this is exactly what absolute truth is: this moment here/now

Scott Mayers
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Scott Mayers » Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:50 am

Systematic wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:28 am
It seems to me that proof of absolute truth is of major importance to epistemology. So, when I heard Robert Sapolsky lectures on youtube, I was surprised to find that, in scientific literature there is a constant. That constant is error. Sapolsky doesn't study physics nor chemistry, but rather, the causes of behavior in biology.
But, every scientific field, that he uses to discover the causes of behavior, seems to be fraught with exceptions to the rules that they observe.
I realize that there is a leap involved in concluding that all scientific theories will have exceptions, but I don't know it to be false.

That leaves us with the epistemological concept of a statement being usually true, yet acceptable anyway.
I don't see a relation of this to the title. Robert Sopolsky's YouTube appears to present him a human behavior biologist and if he has something to say on philosophical absolutes, can you link us to this discussion?

Skepdick
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Skepdick » Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:02 pm

Systematic wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:28 am
That constant is error.
Indeed. That is a mantra in statistics. All models are wrong some are useful.
All a model could ever hope to be is "less wrong" than any other model.

Of course - it' can't be any other way. The only mechanism to determine the validity of a scientific model is to test how well it predicts.
As in - predict the future.

If any model could perfectly predict the future you would have practically answered the "free will vs detemrinism" question.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Does absolute truth exist?

Post by Dontaskme » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:19 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:39 pm
I would say that absolute truth does exist but it will remain for ever unknown to us
As we just do not have the capacity to understand anything in such profound terms
The absolute truth is the one looking out of the eyes of every living creature. That looker is the same one in every material instrument of seeing...and is known only in relation to what it is looking at.

This implies two things...the ''looker'' HERE and the ''looked upon'' THERE ...the sense of HERE & THERE create the sense of I AM

That I AM is like an EMPTY BLANK Canvas ...it's all that can be known in relation to what I AM looking at.

In reality there is no divide between what is looking and what it looked at.

No thing external to I AM can approach I AM to experience I AM - for the 'looked upon' is also the I AM ...there is no divide there, it's all one with itself...nothing can approach I AM or leave I AM

The object of seeing gives rise to the seer - and the seer gives rise to the object - these two dynamics are ONE in the same instant creating each other as ONE

One doesn't require to KNOW anything, it is the ''knowing'' always and ever ONE with itself, functioning all by itself without any external influence or inferrence.

Any inferrence is just more paint upon the screen...obscuring the screen of it's ever self shining brilliance in every moment.

Trying to reach the blank canvas by using more paint is not how the ABSOLUTE is known. The ABSOLUTE is known via direct experience, the experience of just BEING IT...without question.

The Absolute does not ask itself ''does absolute truth exist? '' ..for that would require another knower...and there is no other knower outside of what's already this immediate knowing.

The ''beating heart'' never asks itself why or how am I beating... the eyeball never asks itself why or how am I seeing.

Questions can only arise to the sense of a separate self, which is already an idea known ..already couched within the Absolute knowing.

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