"Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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"Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by -1- » Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:59 pm

I may have been too wordy in my previous topic start.

Please note: What I am after is information on the specific bible quote that
a. Says that man was given free will by god or else
b. says something that christians interpret directly from, and use as a reference, to support they believe god gave free will to man.

So please, offer your theories and other opinions on the other thread with the same title without "Attempt 2". It should give everyone hours of free entertainment.

But I want something different.

What I would really appreciate, because this is what I want to achieve with THIS thread: a word from anyone who knows a bible quote that christians refer to as a declaration by god that he gave free will to man.

All other commentaries, please put in the other thread with the (almost) same title.

thanks, friends, compliance would be much appreciated.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Ramu » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:46 pm

Any concept of humans having free will is delusional at best.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:30 pm

Ramu wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:46 pm
Any concept of humans having free will is delusional at best.
We can't believe you. We were predetermined by fates and material causality to believe whatever we believe.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Immanuel Can » Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:30 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:59 pm
...a word from anyone who knows a bible quote
Already sent to you, on the last strand. Did you miss it?

Genesis 1.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by -1- » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:30 pm
-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:59 pm
...a word from anyone who knows a bible quote
Already sent to you, on the last strand. Did you miss it?

Genesis 1.
I missed it. What's a "strand"? Which is the last one of those? I know the last of the Mohikans, but not the last of the strand.

Please send me the same text that you sent me on the last strand, but in internal mail
as a Private Message here on Philosophy Now.

I was away, and could not contribute or read for a week or so. Maybe five days. A lot of VERY interesting posts have been made, and I could see OPINIONS and INFERENCES, but I could not see a direct quote such as "Genesis: 1:34-37" or something similar.

Please, Immanuel, if you could, please don't send commentary, only send me WHICH bible you quote, and the line numbers. I can do the rest.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by -1- » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:22 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:30 pm
Ramu wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:46 pm
Any concept of humans having free will is delusional at best.
We can't believe you. We were predetermined by fates and material causality to believe whatever we believe.
I not only believe Ramu, but I am on the same opinion.

But that ought not to deter you, Immy, from sending me the bible version and the line numbers for the direct quote in which it says that god gave free will to man.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:44 pm

-1- wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:20 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:30 pm
-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:59 pm
...a word from anyone who knows a bible quote
Already sent to you, on the last strand. Did you miss it?

Genesis 1.
I missed it. What's a "strand"?
A "strand" of conversation is simply a series of messages on a particular topic: a "strand" of thought or conversation, if you will.

This was your second attempt. I was alluding to attempt #1.

Look under attempt 1. You'll find it there.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Immanuel Can » Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:48 am

-1- wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:22 pm
I not only believe Ramu, but I am on the same opinion.
No, you're not.

You never had an opinion in your life. None of us did. Instead, we just "danced to our DNA," as Richard Dawkins puts it. So you don't think, anymore than a rock has to "think" to fall off a mountainside. Like it, you are merely the product of a cascade of inevitable causes. Your opinions are not actually yours: they're products of the Big Bang, or rather, of whatever caused everything that caused the Big Bang. Nothing more.

And that makes me wonder why any of you are being caused to imagine you want to argue against free will. Nobody can believe you. They too are merely products.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by -1- » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:23 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:48 am
-1- wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:22 pm
I not only believe Ramu, but I am on the same opinion.
No, you're not.

You never had an opinion in your life. None of us did. Instead, we just "danced to our DNA," as Richard Dawkins puts it. So you don't think, anymore than a rock has to "think" to fall off a mountainside. Like it, you are merely the product of a cascade of inevitable causes. Your opinions are not actually yours: they're products of the Big Bang, or rather, of whatever caused everything that caused the Big Bang. Nothing more.
Ahem. You are denying the very aspect of ownership. According to you, my clothes are not mine, my toes are not mine, my wife is not mine.

Yet there is an inevitable sense of things belonging to me. My toe is not your toe. My clothes are not worn by anyone else.

You equate getting whatever I own from someone else to these things not being mine. Yet if my grandfather sells me his watch on his death bed, the watch is no longer his. It is mine.

Your point is valid, yet, it does not invalidate ownership. There is determinism; yes. But things as they relate in an infinite chain of causation, the relationships between things are real, (as far as we can see with our senses), and they are valid.

You are right in the determinism doctrine. Yes, my opinions, my toes, my coat, were all caused to be mine. But they ARE mine. Whatever caused them to be my possessions, is not material in the ownership aspect. I own THEM. That's where the buck stops.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by -1- » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:52 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:30 pm
-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:59 pm
...a word from anyone who knows a bible quote
Already sent to you, on the last strand. Did you miss it?

Genesis 1.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:14 pm

Torah, Genesis 1.
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..."

This is a much-discussed passage. Naive readers may think it means, "Let us (haShem) make man with two legs, two arms, and so on, like us." That's obviously contradictory to all that is said later about the nature of haShem, so that can't be it. So in what sense is it being said that man will be, "in haShem's image"?

Free will. Creativity. Personal identity. Moral capability. Choice...These are some of the qualities that have been postulated as being "in the image" of the qualities inherently possessed by God. And you can see the commonality -- they all have to do not with physical likeness but with unique spiritual identity...they have to do with mind, volition, distinctness of individuality, ability to choose and relate, and so on. But what's generally acknowledged by any commentator that thinks there's any seriousness in Genesis 1 at all, that it does not have to do with bodily identity.

So that is likely to be the first mention. But there are many others that follow. For example, every single time an individual is imputed as having a choice or moral responsibility, or for taking unique actions, this implies free will. Absent from the Biblical account is the idea of human beings that cannot be made accountable to God, because they could not have done anything but what they did.

Fair enough?
1. You did not supply a direct quote that deals with free will.

2. What you supplied was a statement that is VERY much up for debate; how do you decide or reject similarity between two entities. It is an epistemological / antephauphthsys nightmare. Trying to win an argument coming down to hard facts what god meant when he said "let man be created in my own image" is ab ovo impossible. This is definitely a statement much discussed and not decidable by mortal humans.

3. You supplied your own commentary; my question to you included the request of no commentaries. Without your commentary (and, incidentally, with it, too) the passage you quoted to me does not say "god created man with free will."

4. God has no free will. It has no morals, it is super-moral and all-knowing. If he knows ALL, he knows his own next thought; to him time is not a dimension, as any time in the future or in the past is as clear to him as the present. So he KNOWS what will happen; therefore he makes no choices. The ability to make choices is the ability to choose an act between two or more possible ones. But to god only one possibility exists in any choice, as he has to make the choice that happens.

In other words, we, humans, have no choice NOW for deciding what to do in the PAST. For god, the FUTURE, the NOW, and the PAST are equivalent to the PAST, so he has no choices at all.

This is a difficult concept.

If making choices is what's similar between god and man, then man can't make choices, either. I. e. There is no free will.

Therefore the passage you quoted to me not only is a far cry from what I asked for, but your commentary proves that it is the opposite to what I asked for.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:52 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 6:30 pm
Ramu wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:46 pm
Any concept of humans having free will is delusional at best.
We can't believe you. We were predetermined by fates and material causality to believe whatever we believe.
But who or what would believe that?

No belief..no you.

No one has ever seen a belief...but do continue to live in your delusion, the one only you create out of nothing.

Your words are just empty thoughts, conceptually known... Knowledge informs the illusory nature of reality.

.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:06 am

-1- wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:23 am

Ahem. You are denying the very aspect of ownership. According to you, my clothes are not mine, my toes are not mine, my wife is not mine.

Yet there is an inevitable sense of things belonging to me. My toe is not your toe. My clothes are not worn by anyone else.
ultimately nothing belongs to you..you came naked and without knowledge. What appears to belong to you is the knowledge that has been superimposed upon you from an external source, aka a believed fictional reality.

No one ever denied the external world of belief..because the external world is an inverted reflection of what you project it to be. It's a mirror/identical image of your uncreated imageless being ..being re-created via sensory perception reflecting back to you.

.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by -1- » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:11 am

Dontaskme wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:06 am
-1- wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:23 am

Ahem. You are denying the very aspect of ownership. According to you, my clothes are not mine, my toes are not mine, my wife is not mine.

Yet there is an inevitable sense of things belonging to me. My toe is not your toe. My clothes are not worn by anyone else.
ultimately nothing belongs to you..you came naked and without knowledge. What appears to belong to you is the knowledge that has been superimposed upon you from an external source, aka a believed fictional reality.

No one ever denied the external world of belief..because the external world is an inverted reflection of what you project it to be. It's a mirror/identical image of your uncreated imageless being ..being re-created via sensory perception reflecting back to you.

.
You are denying the process of acquiring ownership. That is wrong. I came naked and not knowing anything; but I am no longer naked, I am knowledgable, and I own things.

This stupid crowd who comes up with incredibly false theories and wrong opinions is getting to me. Time to quit this stupid site.

Unfortunately, however, for me, it is impossible to quit membership on this site. One can get kicked out, by the administrators of this site, but nobody can voluntarily leave.

Welcome to the Hotel California. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

This is another stupid thing that needs to be changed around here, methinks.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:22 am

-1- wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:11 am

You are denying the process of acquiring ownership. That is wrong. I came naked and not knowing anything; but I am no longer naked, I am knowledgable, and I own things.
Yes, this is also known knowledge.. for the opposite of all known knowledge is also true.
-1- wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:11 am
This stupid crowd who comes up with incredibly false theories and wrong opinions is getting to me. Time to quit this stupid site.
All theories are fictions..think about it, if you couldn't think about anything..where is knowledge?

Who is thinking? ..AM I a thought, or is thought who I AM?

The material world is a ''thought'' ..it's a phantom conceptual story believed to be real. No belief, no reality.




-1- wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:11 am
Welcome to the Hotel California. You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

This is another stupid thing that needs to be changed around here, methinks.
Well you could change it now by switching it's context to...you can never leave what you never entered.

We check out everytime we die, but notice we always come back from the dead. :wink:

.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god." Attempt 2.

Post by Dontaskme » Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:08 am

-1- wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:11 am

You are denying the process of acquiring ownership. That is wrong. I came naked and not knowing anything; but I am no longer naked, I am knowledgable, and I own things.
If you prefer to have this broken down to the individual I person...then I can say the following information which is already known within you.

In the dream of separation, the dream of 'I' aka the ''thought'' aka ''sense'' of 'I' ...only you are having incidentally, believe it or not! :)
It can be understood that every 'word and thought' is believed to be real ..because I AM their only original source and source can never be negated can it?...can you deny or prove your existence right now...No, you don't need to because you just ARE without knowing how or why... This is self-evident, and cannot be refuted.
As soon as there is a demand to KNOW... a demand for knowledge...there appears here now, nowhere.. a sense of separation where there was none previously,..by remembering back to your womb aka the void days, the days of not-knowing unborn nakedness?

So for the individual sense of 'I' ... there is the sense of ownership, the sense of (this is mine) and that sense of mine/me...is what separates you from what is ultimately this immediate unknowning infinite whole undivided reality.

In the dream of separation,the TOTALITY apparently separates via the minds story and belief. In other words..''thoughts of I'' is the separation. But notice, the mind is also a part of SOURCE...albeit the dream of I.

Mind can identify with the story of I ..but never the source of I because I are both simultanously and never the twain shall meet for one very good reason...because every other apparent separate I is just a hologram of the same one light source. And there is only LIGHT...which mind gives many names to...aka concepts known.

You already know this.

.

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