"Free will was given to man by god."

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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-1-
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"Free will was given to man by god."

Post by -1- » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:00 am

"Free will was given to man by god." This I often hear from theists. I searched the bible and found no support for this from the word of the supposed god.

So this is inference? Or did I miss something.

Will Guffo or somebody else please tell me where the idea of "free will" emerged in christian thinking, and what Christians use as explanation to it in the bible?

Belinda
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Belinda » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:17 am

God determines everything that has happened or will ever happen. So that men could choose to obey God, or not as the case may be, God gave men Free Will by special dispensation so that men apart from all other created things could choose to obey God and not have to act from necessity like plants and cows and things.

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HexHammer
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by HexHammer » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:59 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:17 am
"Free will was given to man by god."
LOL!??!?! ..god didn't want us to have free will, so he forbade us to eat the fruit of wisdom!

Belinda
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Belinda » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:19 pm

HexHammer wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:59 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:17 am
"Free will was given to man by god."
LOL!??!?! ..god didn't want us to have free will, so he forbade us to eat the fruit of wisdom!
The myth you refer to is not about God causing this or that. The story of the rebellion of Adam and his subsequent expulsion from Eden is a poetic story that describes how men find Free Will burdensome compared with Eden where men have no responsibility of choice.

In the mythical Garden of Eden there would be no discussion about clinical abortion as God's necessity would prevail as in everything.There would be no sin as nothing could happen there that was not ordained by God.

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henry quirk
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a deist's view

Post by henry quirk » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:41 pm

Crom (the face and personality I hang on the Prime Mover) made me as a free will, instillin' in me everything I need to live well.

He makes no demands, answers no prayers (too busy bein' cranky and broodin' on his mound).

When I kick: I'll stand before him and give an account of myself. If I acquitted myself well, I get Valhalla; if I was a pussy, I get oblivion.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:14 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:00 am
Will Guffo or somebody else please tell me where the idea of "free will" emerged in christian thinking, and what Christians use as explanation to it in the bible?
Torah, Genesis 1.
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness..."

This is a much-discussed passage. Naive readers may think it means, "Let us (haShem) make man with two legs, two arms, and so on, like us." That's obviously contradictory to all that is said later about the nature of haShem, so that can't be it. So in what sense is it being said that man will be, "in haShem's image"?

Free will. Creativity. Personal identity. Moral capability. Choice...These are some of the qualities that have been postulated as being "in the image" of the qualities inherently possessed by God. And you can see the commonality -- they all have to do not with physical likeness but with unique spiritual identity...they have to do with mind, volition, distinctness of individuality, ability to choose and relate, and so on. But what's generally acknowledged by any commentator that thinks there's any seriousness in Genesis 1 at all, that it does not have to do with bodily identity.

So that is likely to be the first mention. But there are many others that follow. For example, every single time an individual is imputed as having a choice or moral responsibility, or for taking unique actions, this implies free will. Absent from the Biblical account is the idea of human beings that cannot be made accountable to God, because they could not have done anything but what they did.

Fair enough?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:20 pm

HexHammer wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:59 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:17 am
"Free will was given to man by god."
LOL!??!?! ..god didn't want us to have free will, so he forbade us to eat the fruit of wisdom!
No. It doesn't say that. It says, "The tree of the knowledge of good and evil," not "the tree of wisdom."

Wisdom is positively lauded in the book of Proverbs, or in James. Biblically, it's celebrated. Not so with two-sided moral knowledge. Man was to choose not to come to know how to disobey God. But, being a free-will being, he was also free to do so, because freedom entails choice. It was specifically negative moral knowledge that was forbidden. Man should have chosen obedience. He did not.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: a deist's view

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:24 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:41 pm
When I kick: I'll stand before him and give an account of myself. If I acquitted myself well, I get Valhalla; if I was a pussy, I get oblivion.
So...no justice, then?

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Jack the Ripper (and, in my view, whoever invented rap music)...all these evil people are not judged? They perpetrated massive evils for which they simply will never answer?

Just curious as to how it works out in Cromland.

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henry quirk
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Mannie

Post by henry quirk » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:36 pm

Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Jack the Ripper (and whoever invented rap music): folks who did a bang up job not livin' well.

They got oblivion.

I wrote, what is for me, a lengthy response to Pete in another thread (mebbe the BOLLOCKS one)...from that you can probably glean what 'livin' well' is.

I'd go into detail here, but: I'm time-pressed.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Mannie

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:06 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:36 pm
Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Jack the Ripper (and whoever invented rap music): folks who did a bang up job not livin' well.
Well, it's hard enough to imagine the punishment appropriate to the rap guy. :wink:

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HexHammer
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by HexHammer » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:41 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:19 pm
HexHammer wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:59 pm
LOL!??!?! ..god didn't want us to have free will, so he forbade us to eat the fruit of wisdom!
The myth you refer to is not about God causing this or that. The story of the rebellion of Adam and his subsequent expulsion from Eden is a poetic story that describes how men find Free Will burdensome compared with Eden where men have no responsibility of choice.

In the mythical Garden of Eden there would be no discussion about clinical abortion as God's necessity would prevail as in everything.There would be no sin as nothing could happen there that was not ordained by God.
This is circular reasoning!

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HexHammer
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by HexHammer » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:42 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:20 pm
Wisdom is positively lauded in the book of Proverbs, or in James. Biblically, it's celebrated. Not so with two-sided moral knowledge. Man was to choose not to come to know how to disobey God. But, being a free-will being, he was also free to do so, because freedom entails choice. It was specifically negative moral knowledge that was forbidden. Man should have chosen obedience. He did not.
No matter if it's knowledge or wisdom, the end result is still the same, but thanks for correction.

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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Scott Mayers » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:33 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:00 am
"Free will was given to man by god." This I often hear from theists. I searched the bible and found no support for this from the word of the supposed god.

So this is inference? Or did I miss something.

Will Guffo or somebody else please tell me where the idea of "free will" emerged in christian thinking, and what Christians use as explanation to it in the bible?
It is from "apologetics" of [insert religion]. These are philosophers that argue for logical reasons for existence of God and/or other issues. The logic is at least most popularly related to the "problem of evil". If God is only absolutely 'good', then he'd require to be responsible for any 'evil' as well. One argument is that God gives us 'free will' then to allow us to NOT abide to his commandments or we'd be defaulted to favor him/it. There are other routes to this justification. It does not have to be about something written but IMPLIED by God's existence as a 'supreme' being, like an ideal Super-machine or computer that can do anything.

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henry quirk
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Mannie

Post by henry quirk » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:43 pm

"Well, it's hard enough to imagine the punishment appropriate to the rap guy."

Mebbe he got an ass-whuppin' before Crom shoved him off into the Big Nuthin'.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: "Free will was given to man by god."

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:02 pm

HexHammer wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:42 pm
No matter if it's knowledge or wisdom, the end result is still the same, but thanks for correction.
No, no...Not "knowledge." Knowledge per se is not forbidden...Biblically, it's encouraged, in fact.

It's "the knowledge of good and evil." Notice the adjectival phrase there. The prohibition is in the realm of the moral, NOT the epistemological.

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