Free Will-debate settled

[philosopher]

It's obviously an almost infinite discussion on this topic, determinism vs. free will.
Alot of those discussing this topic don't even know basic physics and basic logic, so I'll start by explaining the definitions in layman terms first, then move on to the discussion:

DETERMINISM is about how everything in the universe is determined since the big bang. Not by some deity (God), but simply through the process of cause-and-effect. Say you flip a coin. Whether it is head or tail is determined by the way your fingers affected the coin, the gravitational pull from the Earth and many, many other things involved. It makes the resulting head/tail seem "unpredictable", but according to determinism, if you know all the cause-and-effects you can pre-determine if the coin is head or tail.

Now, this view of the world is known as CLASSICAL PHYSICS. Quantum Mechanics have a different approach, in that everything on the tiny scales behaves as probabilities, true probabilities. You cannot possible know the properties of position and momentum of any given quantum particle simultanously by 100 % certainty. You can know one of the properties (ie. position) by 100 % certainty, but then then the momentum will be very uncertain. It is known as Heisenbergs Uncertainty Principle.

This view however, is doubted by those adhering to other equally valid theories of quantum physics. For example you have the de-Broglie Bohm Pilot Wave theory stating that the universe behaves predictably in Pilot Waves. It is a very complicated and advanced field of physics, but in the discussion of topics like determinism, the conclusion we can draw is that we are incapable of knowing everything because of lack of equipment/mathematics, but the world is nonetheless deterministic, even if we - humans - cannot predict it.

Now, FREE WILL is the notion that any human (or even animals) have a WILL that is FREE. What exactly is meant by that? Freedom is when you determine your will yourself, but this makes no sense at all. Your mind is what you might think creates your decisions. But the mind is a result of the brain that is made by neurons sending and receiving neuro-chemical and electrical signals/impulses.

Those signals behave like, well particles bumping into each other in a pre-dermined way. The environment plays a role of course. For example your eyes receive photons which affects the brain center responsible for vision, which affects the entire system. But the universe - as a whole, by all the factors involved from environment to the inner workings of organs to just about everything, is determined since the beginning of the universe.

Even if we accept the Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Mechanics, there is no way for a free will either. It's just that the will isn't dermined since big bang, but is more chaotic and unpredictable, but the workings of your brain is nonetheless the same in that it reacts to the cause-and-effect process.

You do have a will. You do WANT to make a DECISION. But whatever you "want" or whatever your "will" is, it is not free. It can't be, for logical reasons.

Morality and the judicial system relies on the free will to be real. But physics don't care about the judicial system or morality.

Facts are facts, even when you don't like them.

[surreptitious57]

As far as human beings are concerned :
There is no absolute free will - there is no absolute determinism
So therefore free will and determinism are mutually compatible

As far as the Universe is concerned :
Some things are inevitable - such as the heat death of the Universe
Some things are random - such as the position / speed of a particle

[philosopher]

As far as human beings are concerned :
There is no absolute free will - there is no absolute determinism
So therefore free will and determinism are mutually compatible

As far as the Universe is concerned :
Some things are inevitable - such as the heat death of the Universe
Some things are random - such as the position / speed of a particle

You have replied to my thread without even finish reading it.

You missed this part:

"Even if we accept the Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Mechanics, there is no way for a free will either. It's just that the will isn't dermined since big bang, but is more chaotic and unpredictable, but the workings of your brain is nonetheless the same in that it reacts to the cause-and-effect process."

[henry quirk]

FREE WILL is the notion that any humans have WILLS that are FREE. What exactly is meant by that? Freedom is when you determine your will yourself...

Yep: that's my experience of myself exactly. I advocate for libertarian agent causation.

...but this makes no sense at all.

Yeah, I don't care.

[surreptitious57]

Even if we accept the Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Mechanics there is no way for a free will either. It is just that the will
isnt determined since big bang but is more chaotic and unpredictable but the workings of your brain is nonetheless the same in
that it reacts to the cause and effect process

If a will isnt absolutely determined then it must be free some of the time
And a chaotic and unpredictable one implies a certain degree of freedom

[philosopher]

Even if we accept the Uncertainty Principle of Quantum Mechanics there is no way for a free will either. It is just that the will
isnt determined since big bang but is more chaotic and unpredictable but the workings of your brain is nonetheless the same in
that it reacts to the cause and effect process

If a will isnt absolutely determined then it must be free some of the time
And a chaotic and unpredictable one implies a certain degree of freedom

No, chaos and unpredictability means we cannot with absolute certainty tell anything about a quantum particle. But it certainly does not mean the particle has a free will. First of all, one particle cannot be said to have any kind of consciousness. Consciousness arise in the brain with billions upon billions of tiny particles and at that level the uncertainty principle does not apply anyway, since it is classical physics.

Quantum properties only applies to tiny objects - particles (ie. electrons), some atoms and at highest level, some few molecules. Anything larger than that, and the wave function collapse.

[philosopher]

Yep: that's my experience of myself exactly. I advocate for libertarian agent causation.

...but this makes no sense at all.

Yeah, I don't care.

You don't care about facts, I get it.

More than that, you are even PROUD to be a fact-denier. You are proud of being stupid.

[jayjacobus]

Everything came about from one event. After that there were millions of events each with their own chain and then there were billions of events all with a chain back to the first event.

But then there emerged events without a chain but were first events unlinked to the initial event. Tool making, fire making, pyramid building, religions, eating, sleeping, sex, nation building all started from an event that didn't connect to the initial cascade. They became new events. Where did they come from? How did the pyramids get built without a want? Certainly want is not traceable to the big bang unless one uses convoluted logic.
What other motivations are not linked to the big bang?

Don't call me stupid, Fool because I have a short fuse.

[henry quirk]

"You don't care about facts"

Facts are great! Here's a few...

Fire burns.

Ice is cold.

I'm a free will (and so are you).

#

"I get it."

No, not really.

[Greta]

Kudos to the OP for mentioning chaos. Free will pertains to the chaotic aspect of reality (and thus, our natures). It's real but also ridiculously overrated and layered with ***God's Special Magic Dust***.

It's not complicated. Rocks don't have much freedom. They are very orderly. We are less orderly, with higher entropy, and we have more freedom. A gas has oodles of entropy and freedom - too much.

[Impenitent]

Kudos to the OP for mentioning chaos. Free will pertains to the chaotic aspect of reality (and thus, our natures). It's real but also ridiculously overrated and layered with ***God's Special Magic Dust***.

It's not complicated. Rocks don't have much freedom. They are very orderly. We are less orderly, with higher entropy, and we have more freedom. A gas has oodles of entropy and freedom - too much.

oodles less for gasses suspended in liquid

but I'll generally agree that gas freely passed is too much...

-Imp

[Greta]

Kudos to the OP for mentioning chaos. Free will pertains to the chaotic aspect of reality (and thus, our natures). It's real but also ridiculously overrated and layered with ***God's Special Magic Dust***.

It's not complicated. Rocks don't have much freedom. They are very orderly. We are less orderly, with higher entropy, and we have more freedom. A gas has oodles of entropy and freedom - too much.

oodles less for gasses suspended in liquid

but I'll generally agree that gas freely passed is too much...

-Imp

or the gases held within solids for that matter...

-Gre

[Dubious]

Read what's written in nature. Free Will is the easiest of all problems to solve even that which refers to its limitations. You're free to discover (if you have the ability) and you're free to use those discoveries in whatever way for enhancement or an early demise. What you are not free to do is change the rules. The chessboard is only so large.

[A_Seagull]

Morality and the judicial system relies on the free will to be real.

Morality is a myth.

The judicial system does not rely on 'free-will' being real.

Whether the world is 'determined' or whether there is 'free-will' makes no difference to anything or anybody.

Or have you got something more?

[henry quirk]

It matters to me cuz it can matter to me cuz I'm not bio-automation: I'm a free will.