Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:50 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:41 pm
I will gladly come before your God and tell him "I doubled human life expectancy. I cured cancer. I prevented death."
I was not aware you did any of those things.

Logik
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:52 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:50 pm
Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:41 pm
I will gladly come before your God and tell him "I doubled human life expectancy. I cured cancer. I prevented death."
I was not aware you did any of those things.
Me? No!

WE are all working towards those things. Everybody who contributes to the prosperity of Humanity.

My contributions to computation/complexity only matter because I stood on the shoulders of giants.

Cross-generational team work. Something individualists can't quite grasp.

And if all the giants on whose shoulders I stood are in Hell too - it's going to be one hell of a party!

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:10 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:52 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:50 pm
Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:41 pm
I will gladly come before your God and tell him "I doubled human life expectancy. I cured cancer. I prevented death."
I was not aware you did any of those things.
Me? No!
Indeed.

I wonder what you will say. It certainly won't be what you wrote above.

Logik
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:13 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:10 pm
Indeed.

I wonder what you will say. It certainly won't be what you wrote above.
What is it that you are going to say? "I rode a moral high horse against free will. I could've worked on problems that actually matter to Humanity but didn't."

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henry quirk
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"Cross-generational team work. Something individualists can't quite grasp."

Post by henry quirk » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:19 pm

"...for the man who studies to gain insight, books and studies are merely rungs of the ladder on which he climbs to the summit of knowledge. As soon as a rung has raised him up one step, he leaves it behind. On the other hand, the many who study in order to fill their memory do not use the rungs of the ladder for climbing, but take them off and load themselves with them to take away, rejoicing at the increasing weight of the burden. They remain below forever, because they bear what should have bourne them." A. Schopenhauer

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:31 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:13 pm
What is it that you are going to say? "I rode a moral high horse against free will. I could've worked on problems that actually matter to Humanity but didn't."
Titus 3:5
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..."

Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Had I cured cancer, abortion, AIDS and war, I would still not have done enough to earn God's favour. After all, what is all my self-preening "goodness" compared to Him?

But what I cannot do, He has done. That is what I will say.

What will you say?

thedoc
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by thedoc » Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:45 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:41 pm
If we can double human life expectancy in 300 years, imagine what we can do to revamp Hell given eternity and immortality!
The life expectancy has doubled in the last 200 years not 300 years. You are an extreme optimist and unrealistic at that. I don't have much expectancy of immortality, medical technology can only do so much and quality of life is important. Does anyone want to live on life support or a ventilator for 40 or 50 years.

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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:09 pm

thedoc wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:45 pm
The life expectancy has doubled in the last 200 years not 300 years. You are an extreme optimist and unrealistic at that.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: You are arguing my point!

Do you even understand what the word "optimist" means?

I said Team Humanity took 300 years, when it actually took 200 years.
You know doing something in LESS time is BETTER, right?
It means we doubled life expectancy 33% FASTER than I actually claimed.
It means I UNDERESTIMATED how well Team Humanity did. That makes me a pessimist.

The fact you are trying to nitpick the numbers should suggest to you that you lost the argument.
thedoc wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:45 pm
I don't have much expectancy of immortality, medical technology can only do so much and quality of life is important. Does anyone want to live on life support or a ventilator for 40 or 50 years.
Strawman. You are not on a ventilator.

If this was 1750 and you are older than 40 you would be dead by now. Would you rather be dead?

Logik
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:17 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 7:31 pm
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..."
Then I guess I have nothing to worry about.

It's not up to me - it's up to him.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:49 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:17 pm
Then I guess I have nothing to worry about.
That depends. You can stand on your own "goodness," or you can accept His.

But you cannot do both. And if you do the former, then you have excellent reason to worry.

Logik
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:49 pm
That depends. You can stand on your own "goodness," or you can accept His.

But you cannot do both. And if you do the former, then you have excellent reason to worry.
Then I guess I will just have to go right ahead and say it. I am more moral than your God.

I bow to no "omnipotence" that stands by idly. Can I book my 1st class seat to Hell ahead of time?

For you lament me for not opposing that which you perceive as an atrocity (abortion). But you do not lament your master.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:17 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:07 pm
I am more moral than your God.
Then I guess we'll see how that works out for you.

But I wouldn't do that.

Logik
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:27 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:17 pm
Then I guess we'll see how that works out for you.

But I wouldn't do that.
All the more reason to live forever!

If I don't die he can't Judge me.

thedoc
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by thedoc » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:40 am

Logik wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:09 pm
The fact you are trying to nitpick the numbers should suggest to you that you lost the argument.

If this was 1750 and you are older than 40 you would be dead by now. Would you rather be dead?
You don't have an argument, just a lot of hot air, optimism and speculation. Being dead might be better than being an unconscious vegetable.

thedoc
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by thedoc » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:42 am

Logik wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:27 am
All the more reason to live forever!

If I don't die he can't Judge me.
You don't know that, your only speculating.

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