Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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Logik
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:34 pm You wouldn't want that. You might think you do, but you don't.

Better to make sure you've gotten right before you get there. There are no appeals, and the standard is perfect.
There you go. Rejecting my free will!

You are a shitty Christian ;)
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attofishpi
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by attofishpi »

Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:34 pm You wouldn't want that. You might think you do, but you don't.

Better to make sure you've gotten right before you get there. There are no appeals, and the standard is perfect.
There you go. Rejecting my free will!

You are a shitty Christian ;)
AND, one with NO comprehension of the actual entity God.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:34 pm You wouldn't want that. You might think you do, but you don't.

Better to make sure you've gotten right before you get there. There are no appeals, and the standard is perfect.
There you go. Rejecting my free will!
I don't. I also don't reject your individual responsibility before God. You have both.
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attofishpi
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by attofishpi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:00 pm
Logik wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:41 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:34 pm You wouldn't want that. You might think you do, but you don't.

Better to make sure you've gotten right before you get there. There are no appeals, and the standard is perfect.
There you go. Rejecting my free will!
I don't. I also don't reject your individual responsibility before God. You have both.
But you haven't any confidence in you own convictions to address my points word for word, point for point...you are PATHETIC.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:03 pm But you haven't any confidence in you own convictions ...
I do.

But I can't explain the reasons for them to someone who denies having any moral compass points on the issue at all. That's impossible.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by attofishpi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:13 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:03 pm But you haven't any confidence in you own convictions ...
I do.

But I can't explain the reasons for them to someone who denies having any moral compass...
It's not my moral compass that is in question and I certainly am in no denial of having one.

The simple fact is that I have direct interaction and knowledge of the God entity that you've only learned from some PASTOR - well - ROTSAP with your buy bull.

On the one hand you would espouse that God is all forgiving and benevolent, and on the other you preach we (those that are not of your moral fibre) should fear our day of judgement.
You are a fool, in that you cannot see the contradiction of your brainwashed belief.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:13 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:03 pm But you haven't any confidence in you own convictions ...
I do.

But I can't explain the reasons for them to someone who denies having any moral compass...
It's not my moral compass that is in question and I certainly am in no denial of having one.
That may be so. Maybe in regard to, say, theft, your moral compass has clear markings. Or maybe in regard to the telling of lies. That's possible.

However, in regard to the abortion question, you have no hold-back point at all, as you have said. Convenience is sufficient reason to kill a child. If that's true, then there is no moral persuasion possible on that question at all.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by attofishpi »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:22 pm
attofishpi wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:50 pm
Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:13 pm
I do.

But I can't explain the reasons for them to someone who denies having any moral compass...
It's not my moral compass that is in question and I certainly am in no denial of having one.
That may be so. Maybe in regard to, say, theft, your moral compass has clear markings. Or maybe in regard to the telling of lies. That's possible.

However, in regard to the abortion question, you have no hold-back point at all, as you have said. Convenience is sufficient reason to kill a child. If that's true, then there is no moral persuasion possible on that question at all.
I implore you, as a matter of courtesy not to edit my quotes so as to render their context worthless (a habit of yours). And that this conversation, if it continues, includes ALL each others dialogue.

As a 'Christian', you need to get things into perspective. Christ died and popped back alive a couple of days later. He has basically proved to believers that there is more to reality than we perceive - and that the soul is indestructible.
Do we agree thus far?

On the abortion point:-
1. I did not kill a child (a child is developed beyond an embryo or foetus)...and I would NEVER kill a child.
2. A child and an adult have garnered the love of family - if that person was killed suddenly - the loss is on the side of the family and their love for that individual. If the death was without pain or anguish - just a sudden blip to death, there is no loss to that individual, apart from the obvious - that they no longer have that former path in life.
3. The soul is indestructible, therefore - and as confirmed by my sage or God when it spoke to me, that which I 'took' has been reborn (that "child" that I 'killed', became the child of another couple - new parents.
4. I do not advocate abortion and in hindsight, even though I was very young and in no financial situation to raise a child, I wish I hadn't.
5. Since 1997, this God 'introduced' itself to me, in an extremely evil way. In many stages since then to the present day, it has shown how evil it can be, and also how loving it can be - but it wasn't until about 2006 that 'it' actually advised me - that I 'took' - that was ONE of the reasons this God entity was doing to such things to me - primarily for having had an abortion.
6. I would have preferred to have been nailed to a crucifix and die over 24/48 hr period than what God put me through often for months on end.
7. I attempted suicide in 2003 because of it - I put the ball squarely in God's corner. I took loads of sleeping pills, I drank a bottle of wine, I got into my car which I had a tube piped from the exhaust and into the interior and sealed myself in. (I awoke in bed the next day feeling fine. On my lounge room wall was a pencil sketch drawn as if by someone that could move a pencil faster than sound - it was of a wizard cradling what appeared to be the solar system, or a child --- I never and could never draw such a fine sketch - and with such obvious speed)
8. In 2005, a sage introduced himself from the aether to me and years later confirmed to me that YES I did suffer more than Christ. (and remember I AM a Christian, just not the stereotypical type)

I've learned a GREAT deal about this God entity. So long as I never return to eat of the tree of knowledge - since I had already eaten of the tree of life, I will remain here on Earth, which is heaven in fact. I assure you, the chaos of hell is not pleasant.
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:59 am On the abortion point:-
1. I did not kill a child (a child is developed beyond an embryo or foetus)...and I would NEVER kill a child.
Well, here's what the advocates of abortion do: they just arbitrarily "define away" the life of the child. He's just been conceived...not a child. He's second trimester...still not a child. Third trimester...not a child. In process of birth, with one toe still in mother...not a child. One millisecond later, "It's a child."

No part of that makes sense, or is remotely scientific. The abortionist is actually being quite demonic. They all know what they are doing, but they set out to convince vulnerable women that it's okay anyway...maybe even good.

Abortion kills children. Everybody knows it; there are really only two types of people -- those who will admit they know it, and those who are choosing to lie.

You can't have a conversation with the ones who lie. The truth is just not in them about that. Abortionists lie.

Now, there's a better way than the way of the abortionist. Sometimes a person has to own what he or she actually did. It's the road to forgiveness. Abortion is a sin; but there is forgiveness for sins...even the murder of a child. But one never has forgiveness for what one will not admit guilt.
my sage or God when it spoke to me
New Age spirit guide, I guessing?
4. I do not advocate abortion and in hindsight, even though I was very young and in no financial situation to raise a child, I wish I hadn't.
Why not?

If abortions aren't evil, it doesn't add up that you would feel bad and wish you hadn't done it. After all, it wasn't a child, right? So it doesn't matter if it died, and it couldn't be "reborn" anywhere, since it wasn't a child anyway. There was no person to be reborn, then.

But the truth is that you know. You know what abortion is, and you know that you killed a person. That's why you need the elaborate work-around to justify it. Otherwise, you'd just say, "I was glad it's gone, because it was never a child." But you don't believe that.

Neither do I. At last we agree on something. You have something worth grieving there. You have my sympathies. I don't want to condemn you. I'd like to see you get free of the guilt, though. #3 and 4 show you're still struggling with that.
7. I attempted suicide in 2003 because of it
Again, there could be only one explanation for this. You were in deep grief and guilt. You have my sympathy. I can't imagine how hard that was.

I'm sorry you've been through that. But here's what I really want to say to you: God forgives. All you have to do is confess, ask, and trust Him.

That is, after all, what being a Christian is all about. God knows who you are. He made you. You are not an unwanted child. He knows what you've done. He loves you, and will forgive you. He has made a way. You do not have to be alone. There is freedom from guilt, yes, even the guilt of something like that.

And let's face it: all your suffering hasn't really helped you, has it? You're still going over the same territory. That's because none of us can actually atone for our own sins. We all need forgiveness: me first, and you too.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by attofishpi »

You are CLUELESS. One would think you didn't even read all the clear points I made, and again you have snipped my statements putting them out of context. Anyone else reading this thread, please DO read all 8 points I made. I have NO guilt - not an ounce of it. The suicide was because of the EVIL that God did to me. And, as I stated, the soul of the 'child' was reborn - all I did was allow it to have better parents.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik »

Immanuel Can wrote: Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:13 pm I do.

But I can't explain the reasons for them to someone who denies having any moral compass points on the issue at all. That's impossible.
That is a lame, LAME excuse. It is your own moral compass that is miscalibrated - it's pointing in the right direction, but it's lacking in perspective. You are using your illusionary moral superiority to dismissing others.

It's your own inability to reconcile the notions of free will and power that's problematic.

You (seem to?) accept that other peoples' choices are NOT in your control.
You are powerless against free will.
I am as powerless as you are when it comes to free will unless I can exercise immediate control over the undesirable situation e.g if I am omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent.

But I am none of those things - I am just a man and my will far exceeds my power.

It is your WILL, but it is not in your POWER to prevent abortions.
It is your WILL, but it is not in your POWER to prevent murder.
It is your WILL, but not in your POWER to make the world better.

Given the above premise I put to you this thought experiment (similar as before):

If you had the WILL and the POWER to solve one of humanity's problems in the next 5 years.

Would you solve heart disease or murder?
Ask yourself this question: When you face the Great Judge one day, would you rather say "I chose to solve cancer instead of murder" or "I chose to solve murder instead of cancer"?

The Serenity prayer should ring true here...
God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can,
and the wisdom to know the difference.
And there is a bloody line missing here: And let me change the things which will have the broadest positive impact to mankind!
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Logik wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:50 am It's your own inability to reconcile the notions of free will and power that's problematic.
Frankly, no. There is no difficulty there at all. I'm afraid you've imagined it, and then imputed it to me.
If you had the WILL and the POWER to solve one of humanity's problems in the next 5 years.
You've misunderstood my position...maybe because of the fascination with power. Nietzsche's to blame for that, probably.

I do not claim power. I do not wish power over anyone. My role is merely to speak the truth. What people do with it is then up to them; they have a right to be right, and a right to be wrong. That's moral freedom.

But power does belong to God. He is the Judge, not I. My advice is merely, "Don't run head-on into the Judgment. You won't win."

And frankly, that's about as kind and humanitarian a message as can be imagined.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:14 pm
Logik wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:50 am It's your own inability to reconcile the notions of free will and power that's problematic.
Frankly, no. There is no difficulty there at all. I'm afraid you've imagined it, and then imputed it to me.
If you had the WILL and the POWER to solve one of humanity's problems in the next 5 years.
You've misunderstood my position...maybe because of the fascination with power. Nietzsche's to blame for that, probably.

I do not claim power. I do not wish power over anyone. My role is merely to speak the truth. What people do with it is then up to them; they have a right to be right, and a right to be wrong. That's moral freedom.

But power does belong to God. He is the Judge, not I. My advice is merely, "Don't run head-on into the Judgment. You won't win."

And frankly, that's about as kind and humanitarian a message as can be imagined.
Way to dodge the question.

But I will re-state it again, simply. So you can focus. Or dodge it again - your choice.

Since you "merely speak the truth". I would like to hear your truthful opinion on this question.

Given the OPPORTUNITY to solve heart disease or abortion: which one would you CHOOSE?
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Immanuel Can
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Immanuel Can »

Logik wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:56 pm Given the OPPORTUNITY to solve heart disease or abortion: which one would you CHOOSE?
I have, and will have, opportunity to solve neither. That's the truth.
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Re: Why do theists and atheists insist that if there is a God that it created the universe?

Post by Logik »

Immanuel Can wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:57 pm
Logik wrote: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:56 pm Given the OPPORTUNITY to solve heart disease or abortion: which one would you CHOOSE?
I have, and will have, opportunity to solve neither. That's the truth.
Exactly like you have and you will have an opportunity to solve abortion.

Yet you are trying to ride your dead moral high horse. You are investing all your attention on how "immoral" other people are, when you are doing.... nothing towards morality.
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