A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

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Atla
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by Atla » Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:41 pm

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 05, 2019 10:49 pm
"But a still mind still does invent/distort/make up/misunderstand/hallucinate etc. things all the time"

If no thoughts (internal monologue; words "in the head") arise how could it possibly make things up? What you just
described is an impossible paradox.

"invent/distort/make up/misunderstand/hallucinate etc". All of that is exactly movement of mind. Hello?
Only an impossible paradox to those who don't know much about the human mind. Internal monologue, as in words "in the head" is just one or a few forms of thought, there are others as well, some of them go largely or completely unnoticed. Plus there are images, feelings of awareness etc. If your mind isn't moving it means you are pretty much clinically dead.

As for myself, I automatically figured out how to turn on bliss when I was like 5, I don't need meditation for that. Also part of the human brain/mind. Such tricks with solitary bliss are nice but I think the real thing comes from human relationships.
The sensation of human self awareness is thought and sensation. I'm not talking about those things. I'm talking about the unchanging awareness that is experiencing those things.

"That's what every fool believes." Defensive much?
The "unchanging awareness that is experiencing those things" doesn't feel like anything and isn't like awareness. Many believe that it is, that's the illusion that I keep talking about.

roydop
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by roydop » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:49 pm

I have no belief. It is impossible to define/describe the Absolute (state). All that can be done is point others to the Absolute.

Walker
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by Walker » Mon Mar 11, 2019 7:10 am

Re: Meditation

- Meditation is a path to the point, not the point.
- The point is to understand the nature of mind.
- Meditation is the path.

- Traditions say that Buddha gave about eighty thousand teachings with that point in mind.

- For instance, what’s the point of teaching about the universality of suffering?
- The point is to understand the nature of mind.
- Suffering is the path.

Extend the principle.
- What's the point of participating on a forum?
- Participating on a forum makes a forum, a path.
- The point is to understand the nature of mind.

thedoc
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by thedoc » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:12 pm

The real question is what is "natural" or "unnatural" behavior for humans.

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Speakpigeon
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by Speakpigeon » Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:46 pm

roydop wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 3:23 pm
1. The actions of the human species has put into motion a mass extinction event on the earth. This behavior more closely resembles the actions of a cancer than of a mammal.
2. The human species is a cancer.
3. The most obvious difference between humans and all other life is our use of thought and our internal dialogue.
4. Therefore Occam's razor indicates that thought is the cause of humanity's unnatural behavior.
Being that this explanation is the simplest and most obvious, as well as being logically consistent, it must be adopted as the accepted theory as to the cause of said unnatural behavior.
Why do you even need this silly logical argument? We just know that the sheer scale of the main consequences on the environment of what humans do is essentially due to their extraordinary cognitive capabilities, and we know one of the main consequence is indeed the extinction of a very large number of species in all orders of life.
You're argument is also silly in invoking "Occam" at the same time you're trying to peddle the silly idea that this is "unnatural behaviour". Occam says, nature itself is responsible because what humans do is the direct result of our natural characteristics. So, you're contradicting yourself unless you really think we're some diabolical creatures, in which case just says so. So we can have a laugh.
Also, if there's any chance that humanity changed, it will be by using its intellect, not dissing it.
Also, whatever happens, and it could turn very nasty, our natural environment won't disappear and most species won't disappear. More likely, a possibly very, very large number of humans will die and humanity will sort of retreat into a less hubristic period during which maybe other species will get a chance to come back. But it seems anything at this stage could happen. What is very unlikely to happen is the entire destruction of life on Earth or the total destruction of humanity. Possibly a lot of very bad stuff but very unlikely anything terminal as you seem to believe.
EB

commonsense
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by commonsense » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:13 pm

thedoc wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:12 pm
The real question is what is "natural" or "unnatural" behavior for humans.
Although defining natural & unnatural behavior is an important first step, the real question remains what is the cause of unnatural human behavior.

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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by commonsense » Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:45 pm

It is generally accepted that thought produces behavior. It follows that unnatural thought produces unnatural behavior. What is unnatural thought other than psychosis?

Does this mean that the concept of extinction, or near extinction, of the species is psychotic? No, it is not unnatural to be wrong nor even to produce wrong behavior.

So, what brings about wrong thoughts? Who decides that a thought is wrong? Who/what defines wrong? Are there rules? Whose rules?

thedoc
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by thedoc » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:11 pm

commonsense wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 4:45 pm
It is generally accepted that thought produces behavior. It follows that unnatural thought produces unnatural behavior. What is unnatural thought other than psychosis?

Does this mean that the concept of extinction, or near extinction, of the species is psychotic? No, it is not unnatural to be wrong nor even to produce wrong behavior.

So, what brings about wrong thoughts? Who decides that a thought is wrong? Who/what defines wrong? Are there rules? Whose rules?
Unfortunately it is the majority in a society that decides what is right or wrong in that society, but so far we have not found a better way.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by Immanuel Can » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:51 pm

thedoc wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:11 pm
Unfortunately it is the majority in a society that decides what is right or wrong in that society, but so far we have not found a better way.
Sure we have, doc. We used to think morality was objective and didn't change with the whims of the majority. It's only nowadays that we think we're smarter than that.

thedoc
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by thedoc » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:07 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:51 pm
thedoc wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:11 pm
Unfortunately it is the majority in a society that decides what is right or wrong in that society, but so far we have not found a better way.
Sure we have, doc. We used to think morality was objective and didn't change with the whims of the majority. It's only nowadays that we think we're smarter than that.
Perhaps we have but a better system has not been implemented yet possibility because the powers that be will not permit it.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:19 am

thedoc wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:07 am
...the powers that be will not permit it.
Which "powers," doc?

thedoc
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by thedoc » Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:50 am

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:19 am
thedoc wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:07 am
...the powers that be will not permit it.
Which "powers," doc?
Those who have authority over everyone else whether elected, a bureaucrat, or those with wealth. In short those with the authority to tell others what they can and cannot do.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:28 am

thedoc wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:50 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:19 am
thedoc wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:07 am
...the powers that be will not permit it.
Which "powers," doc?
Those who have authority over everyone else whether elected, a bureaucrat, or those with wealth. In short those with the authority to tell others what they can and cannot do.
Yeah, that could be.

thedoc
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by thedoc » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:46 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:28 am
thedoc wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:50 am
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:19 am

Which "powers," doc?
Those who have authority over everyone else whether elected, a bureaucrat, or those with wealth. In short those with the authority to tell others what they can and cannot do.
Yeah, that could be.
These people are much like the Pharisees and Sadducees. of the Jesus story where Jesus was a threat to the status quo and they were afraid of loosing their position of authority.

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Immanuel Can
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Re: A LOGICAL ARGUMENT FOR THE CAUSE OF HUMANITY'S UNNATURAL BEHAVIOR.

Post by Immanuel Can » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:20 pm

thedoc wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:46 pm
These people are much like the Pharisees and Sadducees. of the Jesus story where Jesus was a threat to the status quo and they were afraid of loosing their position of authority.
Yes. It's an old story, isn't it? Human nature hasn't changed in recorded history. Same players, same game, new situation.

Nietzsche wasn't wrong when he said that IF God was taken out of the equation the logical thing to do was to regard morality as no more than a power-game played by one group against the other. I completely agree with him about that. It's the "if" that was his point of failure. But I don't see people who believe what Nietzsche said as irrational at all...they'd be perfectly rational IF Nietzsche were right; but he isn't.

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