wtf wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:16 pm
But those things are not meaning. Example. I am sitting in my favorite chair reading a favorite book. The experience brings back memories of the first time I read that book, the people I knew and the experiences I was having at the time. That's meaning.
Memory recall is meaning? We can do that in algorithms.
wtf wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:16 pm
But there is no meaning in the flow of electrons. The meaning is in my experience of reading the book.
Or the consequence of you reading the book. Reading triggers memory recall.
wtf wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:16 pm
Yes exactly. The electron flows enabled by the key presses are physical; but they are not the meaning. The meaning is inherent in the human intention behind the communication. You seem to be agreeing with me.
In a way - yes. I am agreeing, but I don' want to discuss it too broadly as broad concepts are difficult to pin down.
In context of making symbols meaningful, and in context where intention is meaning the algorithms I write capture my intention and therefore my meaning.
I automate parts of myself. Those algorithms act on my behalf - they capture some of my agency.
wtf wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:16 pm
No, your own example shows that's wrong. The meaning is not in the electron flows. The meaning is in the human interpretation and motivation that causes you to press those particular keys, and that causes me to read and desire to respond.
The meaning is in my intention to move information from my head to yours halfway around the world in 0.300 seconds.
Symbols are the medium, but they key property of computer substrate is the determinism.
The consequence of the symbol is consistently interpreted by the computer. Even if not so by the human.
wtf wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:16 pm
Bit flipping has no meaning. Bits are flipped in a video game or a heart pacemaker. The bits don't care, the electrons don't care. Only the humans care. Living creatures impart meaning to the bit flipping. Which your own example seems to support.
Counter-example. If humans attach meaning to desirable outcomes then making a machine achieve said desirable outcome on my behalf is meaningful.
It means something to have my house clean - I got a Roomba. It cleans my house for me.
wtf wrote: ↑Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:16 pm
A physical computation generates heat. I hope you are not arguing that the heat is the meaning of the computation. It's not. The meaning of the computation is supplied by humans.
I don't think it's that simple.
I want to make my wife happy. I know she likes song X. My intention (which is meaningful) is transferred to a computer.
Computer causes joy vicariously by translating intention into action and vicariously causing memory recall.
To simply the taxonomy - meaning needs not be only about the past. It can be about the future also. Dreams/desires.
And if you want to be pedantic - you like experiencing old memories. But your experience happens post hoc your desire.
I want to experience old memories - therefore I will read this book. Cause -> effect.
Meaning is a consequence.