What is time?

So what's really going on?

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 8813
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

"I(t) could just as well have been the reverse"

Post by henry quirk »

Yep. In a different universe it very well may be.

In this one, however, things always move from 'bad' to 'worse'.
User avatar
Speakpigeon
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: Paris, France, EU

Re: What is time?

Post by Speakpigeon »

surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:05 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: we experience one moment after another rather than the whole block of our life
We do not know if time is continuous or discrete and so you cannot be certain about this
If it is continuous then there are no individual moments entirely separate from all others
Now we can of course separate them subjectively but objectively it is simply not possible
???
We experience one moment after another rather than the whole block of our life...
EB
User avatar
Speakpigeon
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: Paris, France, EU

Re: "I(t) could just as well have been the reverse"

Post by Speakpigeon »

henry quirk wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:26 pm Yep. In a different universe it very well may be.

In this one, however, things always move from 'bad' to 'worse'.
Maybe in this very universe.
How would you know that's not true. You do it from bad to worse but maybe somebody else is going from worse to bad?
If not, why not?
User avatar
Speakpigeon
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: Paris, France, EU

Re: What is time?

Post by Speakpigeon »

Dontaskme wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:01 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:12 am What is time?
What it is which we measure with a clock.
Movement.
Suppose the movement in question is whatever happens now for a few seconds and then goes backward for the same few second to the initial state and then move again forward, and this forever, back and forth. Suppose you're looking at a clock during these few seconds. What you would ever see as measured by the clock is at most a few seconds of time. Yet, all the time the universe would be movement just as much as what it does in fact. And this would last forever! So, I don't think we can quite think of time as movement.
Also, how time being movement could possibly explain that it takes the same time for two people grow-up or for two ice-cubes to thaw?
What about time dilation due to a difference in gravity?
EB
surreptitious57
Posts: 4217
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: What is time?

Post by surreptitious57 »

Speakpigeon wrote:
We experience one moment after another rather than the whole block of our life
Less you can objectively determine how long a moment actually is then it is completely arbitrary
A moment could therefore be anything at all including the entirety of a life or even the Universe
There is no temporal definition of a moment for it can be as long or as short as you want it to be
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 8813
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk »

"How would you know that's not true. You do it from bad to worse but maybe somebody else is going from worse to bad?"

Yeah, but I'm not talkin' about me or you but Reality: as I say, the arrow points in the direction of degradation, uniformity, cold. We get these seeming enclaves of increasing complexity, places were entropy (apparently) ain't king of the dung heap, but these places are fleeting mayfly things (from a certain wide perspective).

As for knowing: it's entirely possible, I guess, for the 'rules' to be different on the other side of the universe, but -- seems to me -- such disparity would make for another universe entirely. No, shoddy though it may be (according to some), the universe is, at least, consistent: the arrow points in one direction (the grave).
User avatar
Speakpigeon
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: Paris, France, EU

Re:

Post by Speakpigeon »

henry quirk wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:15 am "How would you know that's not true. You do it from bad to worse but maybe somebody else is going from worse to bad?"

Yeah, but I'm not talkin' about me or you but Reality: as I say, the arrow points in the direction of degradation, uniformity, cold. We get these seeming enclaves of increasing complexity, places were entropy (apparently) ain't king of the dung heap, but these places are fleeting mayfly things (from a certain wide perspective).

As for knowing: it's entirely possible, I guess, for the 'rules' to be different on the other side of the universe, but -- seems to me -- such disparity would make for another universe entirely. No, shoddy though it may be (according to some), the universe is, at least, consistent: the arrow points in one direction (the grave).
No, the idea is that some subject would be conscious first of what we call future events and move into what we call the past. Events would be exactly the same as we see, only the subject would experience them in reverse. Why not? And if it's logically possibly, why aren't we doing it like this? Happenstance?
EB
User avatar
Speakpigeon
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: Paris, France, EU

Re: What is time?

Post by Speakpigeon »

surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:09 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: We experience one moment after another rather than the whole block of our life
Less you can objectively determine how long a moment actually is then it is completely arbitrary
A moment could therefore be anything at all including the entirety of a life or even the Universe
There is no temporal definition of a moment for it can be as long or as short as you want it to be
Sure, and I might well be a flying pig in a green bomber jacket but the fact is that as things appear, I experience one moment after another rather than the whole block of my life.
You know, well, no, you don't, obviously, but we can't possibly be talking here about what we know. We wouldn't need to discuss what we know. If you know that God exists, what's the point of discussing it? We can only discuss our beliefs and our justifications for them. I call "life" what seems to be life to me and I call "moment" what seems to be a moment to me. Or rather, when I use the word "life", I mean precisely what seems to me to be life and I'm confident I understand the word like most people do. If you mean something else with "life", well, I won't be able to understand you.
And I don't.
EB
Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: What is time?

Post by Logik »

surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:09 pm Less you can objectively determine how long a moment actually is then it is completely arbitrary
A moment could therefore be anything at all including the entirety of a life or even the Universe
There is no temporal definition of a moment for it can be as long or as short as you want it to be
The opposite approach is easier.

You can define what a moment ISN'T.

Lower bound:
1. Definition of a clock. Any wave with a fixed wave-length (regular frequency/period) is a clock.
2. The shortest possible wave-length is determined by Planck length.

Plug in the numbers to get the shortest possible "moment". Anything that takes "less time" than that is not a moment.

Higher bound:
Same definition of a "clock"
The longest possible wave-length is determined by the size of universe.
User avatar
Dontaskme
Posts: 8537
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: What is time?

Post by Dontaskme »

Time is movement.


.
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 4194
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: What is time?

Post by attofishpi »

surreptitious57 wrote: Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:05 pmWe do not know if time is continuous or discrete and so you cannot be certain about this
If it is continuous then there are no individual moments entirely separate from all others
Now we can of course separate them subjectively but objectively it is simply not possible
I think we can look at time objectively by understanding that time is simply the occurrence of an event, no event, no time - a true moment in time.

So what we are looking at, objectively, is the most finite point in 3D space - where, either an event occurs or it doesn't. Binary reality.
User avatar
Speakpigeon
Posts: 981
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:20 pm
Location: Paris, France, EU

Re: What is time?

Post by Speakpigeon »

attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:46 am I think we can look at time objectively by understanding that time is simply the occurrence of an event, no event, no time - a true moment in time.
So what we are looking at, objectively, is the most finite point in 3D space - where, either an event occurs or it doesn't. Binary reality.
But this contradicts our perception of time. One moment, no or very few events. Another moment, a furious myriad of events. I don't think anyone believes time actually slows down or speeds up with the number of events.
We even had to devise special contraptions, clocks, to produce special events occurring at regular time intervals, tick·tacks, to tell us time.
And even if nothing happens around you, your own body is doing all sorts of things and your brain makes sure you have a notion of the passage of time.
A moment in time isn't an instant. "Moment" is just another word for "period of time", only suggesting something shorter. A moment is just a short period of time, say from less than a second to more than one minute. It really doesn't mean anything to ask for a precise duration. How long is a moment? It depends... It was supposed to take just a moment but we waited instead a long moment in silence...

If time was the occurrence of an event, or the succession of events, there would be no reason for similar processes to take the same amount of time.
Instead, if you think events occur in time, in some sort of preexisting time, then events will take a certain time to unfold according to their nature.
Unless, if there is just one fundamental type of event. The time for a macroscopic event to unfold would depend on the fundamental events it is made of. In fact, I can't see any other explanation.
This explains clocks without having to resort to the metaphysical concept of time.
EB
User avatar
attofishpi
Posts: 4194
Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:10 am
Location: Orion Spur
Contact:

Re: What is time?

Post by attofishpi »

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pm
attofishpi wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 10:46 am I think we can look at time objectively by understanding that time is simply the occurrence of an event, no event, no time - a true moment in time.
So what we are looking at, objectively, is the most finite point in 3D space - where, either an event occurs or it doesn't. Binary reality.
But this contradicts our perception of time.
So what? Our perception is also because of events occurring in the sub atomic fabric of our brain.

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pmOne moment, no or very few events. Another moment, a furious myriad of events. I don't think anyone believes time actually slows down or speeds up with the number of events.
Yes, it does. Gravity and the speed one has through space affects the events.
Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pmWe even had to devise special contraptions, clocks, to produce special events occurring at regular time intervals, tick·tacks, to tell us time.
Yes, time is the measurement of events that man has attuned clocks to.
Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pmAnd even if nothing happens around you, your own body is doing all sorts of things and your brain makes sure you have a notion of the passage of time.
As above RE our perception.

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pmA moment in time isn't an instant. "Moment" is just another word for "period of time", only suggesting something shorter. A moment is just a short period of time, say from less than a second to more than one minute. It really doesn't mean anything to ask for a precise duration. How long is a moment? It depends... It was supposed to take just a moment but we waited instead a long moment in silence...
As I said, at its most finite a moment in time is binary, either there is an event in 3D space, or there isn't - yes, this includes the events occurring within the 'fabric' of our brain.

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pmIf time was the occurrence of an event, or the succession of events, there would be no reason for similar processes to take the same amount of time.
Similar is a massive word in the context of time.

Scientists have for the first time been able to measure something in a zeptosecond, or a trillionth of a billionth of a second.
An attosecond is even larger but is 1×10−18 of a second (one quintillionth of a second). For context, an attosecond is to a second what a second is to about 31.71 billion years. The word "attosecond" is formed by the prefix atto and the unit second.

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pmInstead, if you think events occur in time, in some sort of preexisting time, then events will take a certain time to unfold according to their nature.
No, I don't think you are quite getting this. Events ARE time.

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pmUnless, if there is just one fundamental type of event.
The events that make up our reality - at the binary most finite scale - possibly well beneath the planck scale, may be related to other events in 3D space, but not necessarily in a causal relationship.

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pmThe time for a macroscopic event to unfold would depend on the fundamental events it is made of. In fact, I can't see any other explanation.
Such as the huge amount of events that must occur for a second hand to move a second.

Speakpigeon wrote: Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:30 pmThis explains clocks without having to resort to the metaphysical concept of time.
Clocks don't have to do anything that humans apply metaphysical concepts to.
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 8813
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk »

"No, the idea is that some subject would be conscious first of what we call future events and move into what we call the past. Events would be exactly the same as we see, only the subject would experience them in reverse. Why not? And if it's logically possibly, why aren't we doing it like this? Happenstance?"

Livin' in reverse: temporal dyslexia. Maybe all schizophrenics have that... :confused:
User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 8813
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

Post by henry quirk »

Time is movement, sez the man with a poop as his avatar...HA!
Post Reply