Why humans can't get rid of their egos ?

[Dontaskme]

Don't worry, you people won long ago, decades or centuries ago. No one can save the world now, we will almost certainly all die soon, I hope that makes you happy.

Well thankfully, thanks to the study of non-duality I don't fear death because I know now that it's an illusion, in fact nothing is alive or dead, but who would believe that? this is the beauty of self study...inquiry...and not just be totally accepting and believing of what other people have told you. Just go with what feels right for you from your own direct experience the way you see the world. We do not see the world as it is but as we believe it to be.

I've come to accept such things. So I'm never really serious on this forum either, as I mentioned before. I'm mostly just here for "entertainment", you take the crazy crap you are sprouting far more seriously, from what I can tell.

No I seriously don't take myself seriously... that's just you projecting again..it's ok, we all do it, get rid of untruths in ourselves and place it on another...where else you going to dump the shit?

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[Lacewing]

Challenge away..but please do it with some maturity.

Already done that many times, and I've provided the feedback (you're so happy to receive) on why it has usually been pointless with you. Maturity is not an issue. It's immature for you to say that.

Rest assured, I am very well... not gone insane yet, non duality saved me from that fate

At least that's what you tell yourself.

This forum provides an entertaining record, which is not difficult to discern when one doesn't have a stake in a particular spin. Many of us learn a lot from the interactions -- watching each other (similar versions of ourselves) playing things out. And over time, we can see ourselves and others evolve and expand. Egos and religious mindsets are front and center much of the time. To deny that makes such people liars. To act detached or above humankind makes such people ignorant. It's one thing to talk about nonduality -- it's another thing to pretend to embody it from some fake superior platform while talking to other people (who are ALSO divine beings, by the way). Regardless of whether such a person is searching for truth in their own way, it's valuable for other people to point out how they still have their ego in tow...and if self-deception is more apparent than clarity and honesty.

[Dontaskme]

Challenge away..but please do it with some maturity.

Already done that many times, and I've provided the feedback (you're so happy to receive) on why it has usually been pointless with you. Maturity is not an issue. It's immature for you to say that.

Okay, I'll take the immaturity label for the team...no problem.

If our previous discussions have been pointless with me, then it was because of what I'd said when I'd asked you if you've studied nonduality and you replied by saying no...so I guess I just couldn't see the point in exchanging a non-dual dialog..
So that aside, I want you to know that I am open to recieve any feedback from you from now on in, if your desire to challenge any subject that appears on the forum is what you want...is that fair enough?



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[Dontaskme]

At least that's what you tell yourself.

Well yes actually I do tell myself that all the time, it's like I know I'm the most sane person I know, it's others that just can't accept that.

This forum provides an entertaining record, which is not difficult to discern when one doesn't have a stake in a particular spin. Many of us learn a lot from the interactions -- watching each other (similar versions of ourselves) playing things out. And over time, we can see ourselves and others evolve and expand.

I agree..

Egos and religious mindsets are front and center much of the time. To deny that makes such people liars.

Well it is what it is, I don't really judge it myself, it's just what the human does with it's time, it talks about stuff, any stuff that interests it.

To act detached or above humankind makes such people ignorant. It's one thing to talk about nonduality -- it's another thing to pretend to embody it from some fake superior platform while talking to other people (who are ALSO divine beings, by the way).

I'm not sure that's actually what nondualists do think LW, you maybe right, but then I don't really have an opinion on one seeking superiority out of this knowledge, nonduality for me has made me more of a passive, peaceful humble sort of being really, but yeah I can roll with others in the mud when I want to.

Maybe there is a superiority within the individual self there, but certainly not over other people. With non-dual knowledge there is the monkey mind and divine mind...so all the nondualist is doing is resting in their divine self, which can seem like superiority over others, it does get confusing, but discernment is the key..

Regardless of whether such a person is searching for truth in their own way, it's valuable for other people to point out how they still have their ego in tow...and if self-deception is more apparent than clarity and honesty.

I agree Lacewing, I hear what you are saying...the ego is always right there lurking in the background somewhere. I think the nondualist is very well aware of that.

More often than not, the ego demands that it takes centre stage...and the divine higher self mind, always allows it because that self comes from a place of all alllowing, from unconditional love...it allows the ego it's freedom to do what it wants.

I know my posts have been sometimes very messy and shitty, but I'm always under construction. I can only improve.

I wish you well Lacewing.

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[Lacewing]

If our previous discussions have been pointless with me, then it was because of what I'd said when I'd asked you if you've studied nonduality and you replied by saying no...so I guess I just couldn't see the point in exchanging a non-dual dialog..

Since when does someone have to study something in order to naturally understand it?

The reason previous discussions were pointless from my perspective was because you were inconsistent: operating from duality in some regards, and then spinning off into nonduality when challenged about your duality. It seemed dishonest and untrustworthy.

Using nonduality to avoid accountability is not an impressive use of it -- rather, it just shows the sneaky depths people can go to, and how they can corrupt anything.

So that aside, I want you to know that I am open to recieve any feedback from you from now on in, if your desire to challenge any subject that appears on the forum is what you want...is that fair enough?

Sounds great! Thanks!

[Dontaskme]

Since when does someone have to study something in order to naturally understand it?

Well not to put too finer point on it, I would have thought that is obvious from a subject point of view.
Did your schooling education teach you about your divine self and your ego self?
You were taught how to study maths and how all those numbers worked, but were you taught anything about yourself being divine? were you taught that there is no separate self, and that the separate self was an illusion, not that it didn't exist, but it existed as an illusion?
I wasn't ..I don't know about you...but anyhow, that's what non-duality is all about, it's about coming into alignment with your divine self. It's very humbling.

Also, on the subject of naturally understanding something, do you naturally understand that there is actually nothing to understand?
This is a whole new course of study, a discourse often over looked...you see?

The reason previous discussions were pointless from my perspective was because you were inconsistent: operating from duality in some regards, and then spinning off into nonduality when challenged about your duality. It seemed dishonest and untrustworthy.

Okay, I will try to address those flaws in future dialog.

Using nonduality to avoid accountability is not an impressive use of it -- rather, it just shows the sneaky depths people can go to, and how they can corrupt anything.

Hmm, but you see I don't think that's actually what is going on inside the nondualists mind, speaking for myself so to speak, but then if that's what's being perceived, then okay, we'll work on presenting this knowledge a whole lot better.

So that aside, I want you to know that I am open to recieve any feedback from you from now on in, if your desire to challenge any subject that appears on the forum is what you want...is that fair enough?

Sounds great! Thanks!

Excellent!

Let the party begin...all are invited, and remember to be friendly,and kind to yourselves.

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[Lacewing]

Egos and religious mindsets are front and center much of the time. To deny that makes such people liars.

Well it is what it is, I don't really judge it myself, it's just what the human does with it's time, it talks about stuff, any stuff that interests it.

Really? You don't notice when people are making false claims... and that doesn't have an effect on their credibility for you? You just hear all talk as the same?

It's one thing to talk about nonduality -- it's another thing to pretend to embody it from some fake superior platform while talking to other people...

I'm not sure that's actually what nondualists do think LW, you maybe right

I don't think all nondualists do that. I think nondualists on this forum tend to do that. It's quite obvious in the way they phrase things, which positions themselves as "knowers"... and others as "not knowing", yet in nonduality there would be no "others". From what I've seen, there is more "separateness" in their presentations than they want to admit to, and they use nonduality as a cloak to dart behind when it suits them.

nonduality for me has made me more of a passive, peaceful humble sort of being really, but yeah I can roll with others in the mud when I want to.

That's nice, and I can see that. I also see that things get muddied at times -- and those discussions make an impression too. For some reason, topics that involve some kind of awareness potential, get my attention if it appears that they are being used dishonestly. Whereas I don't care as much about people being dishonest with politics -- that's just part of the landscape. But any topic that is represented as "higher thinking" needs to have higher standards and accountability... it seems to me... and people should not be representing themselves as knowers and experts.

With non-dual knowledge there is the monkey mind and divine mind...so all the nondualist is doing is resting in their divine self, which can seem like superiority over others, it does get confusing, but discernment is the key.

Then the nondualist should EASILY be able to clarify when they are challenged on this. Instead, their ego dances a dance of separation, and uses this platform to stroke itself. This has been played out over and over. Nonduality wouldn't need to do that... ego would. It seems "dangerous" to me that people misuse awareness in this way. Like religion... when self-serving.

More often than not, the ego demands that it takes centre stage...and the divine higher self mind, always allows it because that self comes from a place of all alllowing, from unconditional love...it allows the ego it's freedom to do what it wants.

Okay... then again, the nondualist should be able to acknowledge that when challenged, rather than denying that their ego is in play. Otherwise, their awareness is no clearer than a dualist. If there is not consistency and accountability, then what is it?

I know my posts have been sometimes very messy and shitty, but I'm always under construction. I can only improve.

Me too!

I wish you well Lacewing.

Thanks!

[Atla]

I don't think all nondualists do that. I think nondualists on this forum tend to do that. It's quite obvious in the way they phrase things, which positions themselves as "knowers"... and others as "not knowing", yet in nonduality there would be no "others". From what I've seen, there is more "separateness" in their presentations than they want to admit to, and they use nonduality as a cloak to dart behind when it suits them.

Nonduality sort of has two awakenings, but people like DAM, Nick, Age etc. have only gone through the first one (or not even that). Now they are stuck in limbo in all kinds of half-crazy states, these traps are quite typical. Not going all the way with the awakening process is usually worse than not starting it at all.

It is true that we nondualists are "knowers", we do know something that ~98-99% of people in Western cultures do not, namely what our "true nature" is. But after the second awakening we are led back to reality, to the world of (apparent) separateness, with an ego. I would say the majority, especially the ones coming from the Advaita angle, never make it to the second stage (the Buddhists are better at this).

[Logik]

But after the second awakening we are led back to reality, to the world of (apparent) separateness, with an ego. I would say the majority, especially the ones coming from the Advaita angle, never make it to the second stage (the Buddhists are better at this).

Here's a handy litmus test for ego:

Show somebody a photo of themselves. Ask them what they see.

The number of times I've heard "I see a loving husband", "A business woman", "a happy smile", "a no-bullshit tough son of a bitch blah blah blah" .

So many people narrate their self-image/identity. None of them see simply themselves.

[Dontaskme]

I don't think all nondualists do that. I think nondualists on this forum tend to do that. It's quite obvious in the way they phrase things, which positions themselves as "knowers"... and others as "not knowing", yet in nonduality there would be no "others". From what I've seen, there is more "separateness" in their presentations than they want to admit to, and they use nonduality as a cloak to dart behind when it suits them.

Nonduality sort of has two awakenings, but people like DAM, Nick, Age etc. have only gone through the first one (or not even that). Now they are stuck in limbo in all kinds of half-crazy states, these traps are quite typical. Not going all the way with the awakening process is usually worse than not starting it at all.

It is true that we nondualists are "knowers", we do know something that ~98-99% of people in Western cultures do not, namely what our "true nature" is. But after the second awakening we are led back to reality, to the world of (apparent) separateness, with an ego. I would say the majority, especially the ones coming from the Advaita angle, never make it to the second stage (the Buddhists are better at this).

Not going all the way with the awakening process as in not allowing oneself to get yanked back into reality doesn’t mean one lives a half baked awakening...you do say some really weird shit, seriously where do get all these reactive conditioned ideas from? How naive do you think people are? I think people are much more intelligent than that, give us some credit.

You have absolutely no idea how an awakened person chooses to live their actual realtime life outside of forum posting. And there is no way you can tell just by the way they talk about the subject on a forum. How ridiculous to think you can. Just because they choose to stay in the no self on the forum doesn’t mean that’s how they act in real-time actuality.

Nor have you any idea if a person is awake or asleep. That’s you just being a dickhead know it all idiot thinking you know things you don’t actually know.

Although it is true that a full blown awakening can completely annihilate the person to the point where the person no longer chooses to participate in the game anymore, that’s entirely their choice...but has nothing to do with whether they are awakened properly or not.

But believe what you like, doesn’t make it true..you’re just projecting a belief that is purely yours ...which can only belong to you as you well know.

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[Lacewing]

were you taught anything about yourself being divine? were you taught that there is no separate self, and that the separate self was an illusion, not that it didn't exist, but it existed as an illusion?

I don't use those particular phrases, but I agree with them. From my very earliest thoughts and intuition as a child, I felt that I belong... and that all is divine... and (eventually I could put into words) that separation is an illusion. This was not taught to me. If anything, it was discouraged in favor of worshiping some sort of god.

Often, when people spend a lot of energy on self-improvement or expanding their awareness, they are blown away by what they discover, and they want to tell everyone. We may think that the same particular method must be used to "get there". But what kind of persnickety Universe would that be?! Surely there is NO SINGLE PATH to get anywhere. And each of us are capable of a vast range of degrees of awareness regardless of any study or platform we may say we align with.

that's what non-duality is all about, it's about coming into alignment with your divine self. It's very humbling.

I think it's valuable to be careful and stay aware, because the ego is so clever at contorting things into self-service. If we want to truly be transmitting and receiving in clarity, we have to stay self-aware of our human trickery and fear.

Also, on the subject of naturally understanding something, do you naturally understand that there is actually nothing to understand?
This is a whole new course of study, a discourse often over looked...you see?

Yes. I think such an understanding offers more of an enhancement/empowerment to my capability and clarity, rather than being something I would dive into and "study". I simply embrace being human on Earth while feeling that ALL IS WELL and complete. There is nothing I need to do or know... it's all play.

This is why I don't think anyone needs to be telling me HOW to do it. I love hearing about possibilities, I'm just wary of people's obsessions, because it always seems to have too much of their stuff mixed in.

The reason previous discussions were pointless from my perspective was because you were inconsistent: operating from duality in some regards, and then spinning off into nonduality when challenged about your duality. It seemed dishonest and untrustworthy.

Okay, I will try to address those flaws in future dialog.

Wonderful! I will respond politely!

Using nonduality to avoid accountability is not an impressive use of it -- rather, it just shows the sneaky depths people can go to, and how they can corrupt anything.

Hmm, but you see I don't think that's actually what is going on inside the nondualists mind, speaking for myself so to speak, but then if that's what's being perceived, then okay, we'll work on presenting this knowledge a whole lot better.

I'm glad you are seeing a positive use for my feedback. That's my greatest hope in offering it... even though I'm having fun with it too.

Let the party begin...all are invited, and remember to be friendly,and kind to yourselves.

Sounds good!

[Dontaskme]

I’ll be back to reply to you tomorrow Lacewing.

It’s late in the night here, I’m turning in.

[Lacewing]

Not going all the way with the awakening process is usually worse than not starting it at all.

I've seen this. People who have discovered just enough new awareness to be dangerous with it, without recognizing their own influences in convoluting it.

It is true that we nondualists are "knowers", we do know something that ~98-99% of people in Western cultures do not, namely what our "true nature" is. But after the second awakening we are led back to reality, to the world of (apparent) separateness, with an ego.

This makes sense. For me, there is no reason for greater awareness to detach from being human. It is possible to have one's head in the Heavens while one's feet are dancing on the Earth because it's all one.

[Dontaskme]

Not going all the way with the awakening process is usually worse than not starting it at all.

I've seen this. People who have discovered just enough new awareness to be dangerous with it, without recognizing their own influences in convoluting it.

It is true that we nondualists are "knowers", we do know something that ~98-99% of people in Western cultures do not, namely what our "true nature" is. But after the second awakening we are led back to reality, to the world of (apparent) separateness, with an ego.

This makes sense. For me, there is no reason for greater awareness to detach from being human. It is possible to have one's head in the Heavens while one's feet are dancing on the Earth because it's all one.

It’s dangerous knowledge yes, but be careful not to tar everyone with the same brush here..
And yes, the awakened one .. all of us.. have only got one foot in this looney bin.....just kidding!

No one is detaching here..let’s get this clear...this is a Human experience...there’s no way out of that one even if you tried.

[AlexW]

Whether a view doesn't need to be right or wrong still needs a belief that the view is without belief....the assumption made that there is no belief present has to be believed...any assumption made needs a belief before it can be viable... if there is no belief there..then there is no view point either... they go together, no belief, no view...else nothing would make sense....no belief, no movie.

Agree and well said! - I like that.