How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:26 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:46 pm
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:45 pm
I don't have to, because the experiment is continually ongoing.
That's not an experiment, that's a phenomenon.
All experiments, as contexts through which a series of relations are observed and given boundaries, are phenomena in and of themselves with the phenomena as strictly a localization of one set of realities (out of 1 total reality in and of itself) that in itself is a context.

The definition of "phenomena" or "context" effectively exist as dependent upon one another, where relativistically we can observe each definition directed to another definition to another definition ad-infinitum through a progressive recurssion in which each foundational axiom exists through a progressive variation as it moves towards another.

This nature of "context/phenomena/framework/etc." as axioms exist through a progressive replication as a variation of one axiom. In these respects we are left with "all" being an extension of one source. This applies directly to morality, through the golden rule, in which this universal "cycle through reciprocation" is approximated through many moral choices such as worship/property ownership/murder/etc. that while percievable seperate still exist as grades of a universal moral law grounded in "circularity" that is observed in a constant form under a continually new variation.

From these respects, we are left with the foundations of a sound ethical theory grounded in a universal axiom of "space" conducive to not just the golden rule observed in many cultures, or moderation as the cycling of two extremes into one (means as the synthesis of two extremes), but simultaneously a reflection into the older cultures anthropormization of sphere/sun worship or the current paradigm of "atomic relativism" grounded in both cycles and alternation of phenomenon.

prof
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by prof » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:43 am

Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am
Yes, ethics is a system.... that functions at the social, not individual scale.
False. One may be ethical toward oneself. See the definition of "morality" in Chapter Three here: http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf


It is incredibly dynamic.
True. By the very definition of "morality" in the theory.

Any theory that we may produce would be descriptive, not normative.
False. It is both descriptive AND normative - as any astute reader can see who reads and studies the Structure book.


such a theory would diminish as ethics evolves and the theory is no longer representative.
True. Until then, though, this theory is useful knowledge to live by.


To solve ethics is to solve ...dynamic systems.
Tue. At least this one dynamic system. If it is partially unsolved, then cooperatively help in making it better - within the framework offered.

Comments, anyone? Your views on the new theory? Does it largely account for ethics? Should corruption be made a crime, by legislation, as one reference suggests?

.

Logik
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:09 am

prof wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:43 am
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am
Yes, ethics is a system.... that functions at the social, not individual scale.
False. One may be ethical toward oneself. See the definition of "morality" in Chapter Three here: http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf
Nonsense. I can't be unethical or immoral towards myself. The very notion of doing something to myself against my own will does not compute.
To engage in "ethics" with myself requires a negotiation. The very notion of 'negotiating with myself about myself' does not compute.

prof wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:43 am
False. It is both descriptive AND normative - as any astute reader can see who reads and studies the Structure book.
More nonsense. As any scientist can point out that all descriptive theories are of equal utility. Zero.

prof
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by prof » Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:55 am

I often negotiate with myself: "Shall I eat that sweet stuff even though I know it's bad for the health of my teeth? Shall I care more about my teeth and gums, or shall I care more about my (possibly apparent) hunger? ...Or is that "hunger" actually "just appetite"?
Sometimes I decide that it was not true hunger at all, that I've had enough to eat, and that I had better clean and brush my teeth now.

You claim that all descriptive theories are of zero utility.
I hold that utility is only one criterion among many that may be relevant to ethics

Intrinsic valuation (love) is the main criterion for living the good life, the ethical life. 8)
Hence a good Ethical Theory will emphasize that sort of valuation as appropriate for others.
[Since respect precedes love] Respect yourself! And respect others! ...regardless of what you judge as 'merit.'

In fact it is best if you do not judge others morally, for you do not know what is in their heart.
The exception to this are public figures such as politicians, holders of public office. Then satire is okay ...such as we see, so well done, by Steven Colbert on CBS. And also by Bill Mahr on HBO's "Real Time."


:idea: What did you think of the idea, logik, that you ask IBM's Watson - the computer that won on TVs "Jeapody" show - this question: What policies will result in a maximum of human well-being, joy, and prosperity?

Then you feed, as input, into a super-computer that learns, using GAI, the recommended policies you got from Watson.
That GAI learning-computer will relentlessly pursue those policy-goals that bring maximum well-being, joy and prosperity to human beings. No need to fear if it has "learning explosions" on the way. Even better if it does!

Your views?

Logik
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Sat Mar 30, 2019 9:35 am

prof wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:55 am
I often negotiate with myself: "Shall I eat that sweet stuff even though I know it's bad for the health of my teeth? Shall I care more about my teeth and gums, or shall I care more about my (possibly apparent) hunger? ...Or is that "hunger" actually "just appetite"?
Sometimes I decide that it was not true hunger at all, that I've had enough to eat, and that I had better clean and brush my teeth now.
You need psychiatric help. Cost-benefit analysis is not negotiating with yourself.

I feel the need to eat the sweet stuff (cause irrelevant).

"I know sweets are bad for me and I don't care" (indifference, desire, temptation, impulsiveness).
"My hunger/appetite is still unsatisfied, but I will not yield." (reason, self-control/discipline, impulse suppression).

At the end of the day none of that shit matters. Ceteris paribus, you should be making the same choice every time because cost-benefit analysis is deterministic. And yet, some times - you allow yourself to eat the sweets, and other times you stop yourself. There is entropy in your decision-making process - lapse of judgment.

That which you call "negotiation" is internal conflict. Colloquially: you don't know what the fuck you want.
prof wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:55 am
You claim that all descriptive theories are of zero utility.
I hold that utility is only one criterion among many that may be relevant to ethics
That's a truism. In every field there are multiple criteria on every subject.
In the field of ethics utility is the most important criterion.
In the field of humanity utility is the most important criterion.
prof wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 12:55 am
Intrinsic valuation (love) is the main criterion for living the good life, the ethical life. 8)
Very Kantian, but love doesn't feed a family or put a roof over one's head. Very self-centered too.

Ethics is only in the context of "US". More than 1 person required.
Ethics has no utility in 1-person societies.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:45 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:09 am
prof wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:43 am
Logik wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:49 am
Yes, ethics is a system.... that functions at the social, not individual scale.
False. One may be ethical toward oneself. See the definition of "morality" in Chapter Three here: http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf
Nonsense. I can't be unethical or immoral towards myself. The very notion of doing something to myself against my own will does not compute.
To engage in "ethics" with myself requires a negotiation. The very notion of 'negotiating with myself about myself' does not compute.

False, if humanity is defined by its computative nature...then an absence of computation is a fault.

prof wrote:
Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:43 am
False. It is both descriptive AND normative - as any astute reader can see who reads and studies the Structure book.
More nonsense. As any scientist can point out that all descriptive theories are of equal utility. Zero.

False, utility is undefined and not computable according to your framework.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:55 pm

The question of "constructing" an ethical system is in itself an ethical question that ends in a loop.

The Golden Rule is a self-referential universal ethical system the constructs itself.

prof
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by prof » Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:39 pm

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:55 pm
The question of "constructing" an ethical system is in itself an ethical question that ends in a loop.
Back up this claim with some reasons! Why is it an "ethical" question?

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:55 pm
The Golden Rule is a self-referential universal ethical system the [sic] constructs itself.
Yes. And back in 2017 I devoted a chapter to it with the title "A Golden Principle." See pp. 66-68 here:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/HO ... SFULLY.pdf

How about that?!!

Do you believe that that one moral principle is sufficient to cope with most every issue that arises in the field of Ethics?
Speak up, folks. Is that one 'rule' adequate?
Won't the word "rule" scare off lots of people today?

What do you think?

Logik
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Sun Mar 31, 2019 1:03 pm

prof wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 11:39 pm
Back up this claim with some reasons! Why is it an "ethical" question?
Because your "ethical theory" (the one which abandons counter-factual reason in favour of a strict evidence-based/empirical paradigm) is morally bankrupt if applied to the field of aircraft engineering. Evidence should NOT be required for fatal design flaws the consequences of which can be computer using a thought experiment.

Your mode of reasoning (known as Tombstone mentality) is precisely what caused the Challenger disaster, where engineers' instincts and warnings were ignored by people in the ivory tower.

Thus the ethical dilemma: Given a choice between 10 different ethical theories: which one is most ethical?

Choosing an ethical theory is a trolley problem.

prof
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by prof » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:04 am

Hey everyone:

:?: Did you know :?: that the Ultimate Goal of Ethics, according to Dr. M. C. Katz, is a Quality Life for all.

What is "a Quality Life"?

It is having a good character and having well-being. What is "well-being"?

It’s a life rich in meaning, one full of ‘mountain-top’ experiences and warm memories. It is quality time with those we love. It includes leisure to pursue our hobbies and freely-chosen projects. It's getting into 'the flow', having some accomplishment to your credit, attaining some happiness.

A more-detailed explanation of the concept "well-being," as understood by Dr. Martin Seligman, is given THE STRUCTURE booklet. Here is a link to it:
http://www.myqol.com/wadeharvey/PDFs/TH ... ETHICS.pdf

Dr. Katz tells us that Ethics entails creating value in human relationships.

What do you think? I'd like to hear your views.

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Apr 02, 2019 1:33 am

'Barbarism is the natural state of mankind,' the borderer said, still staring somberly at the Cimmerian. 'Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph.' -Robert E. Howard, Beyond The Black River

prof
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by prof » Wed Apr 03, 2019 1:41 am

.

That is why it is vital that we keep up the efforts to provide a Quality Life for one and all.

.

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henry quirk
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that's the difference between us, prof...as the cannibal horde approaches...

Post by henry quirk » Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:16 pm

...you wanna make peace with 'em and I wanna burn 'em with napalm :fire:

prof
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Re: that's the difference between us, prof...as the cannibal horde approaches...

Post by prof » Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:31 am

henry quirk wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 3:16 pm
... I wanna burn 'em with napalm :fire:
You seem like a real nice guy, Henry. :roll: :wink:

Logik
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Re: How construct a sound Ethical Theory?

Post by Logik » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:35 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:45 pm
False, utility is undefined and not computable according to your framework.
Bullshit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility#Utility_function

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