Solipsism cannot be true

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roydop
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by roydop » Tue Mar 26, 2019 7:52 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:54 pm
roydop wrote:You are starting a "turtles all the way" treadmill. You (not the thoughts/sensations you experience) are the Absolute. ...
Absolute what? Personally I think there are phenomena and the noumena but it could just all be phenomena for all we could know about the noumena.

There is no description for the Absolute. The Tao De Ching says: "The Tao that is spoken is not the true Tao."
My perspective is always first person. You are relying on a third party (in this case your wife) to validate your position. That is not scientific. ...
Er!? That is exactly what the scientific perspective is.
I presently exist. Given that there is only ever the present... well it's self evident. ...
What is self-evident?
Are you serious? You presently exist. There is only the present. You can't figure it out from here? (Hint: time is an illusion)[/i]
But mind/ego, believing self to be a convolution of body and thoughts, will try to defend it's incorrect perspective. One can only think oneself deeper into delusion.
Personally I think the delusion lays with those who think there can be a mind/ego(whatever the latter means?) without a body.


If you are the body then while the body exists so do you. Immediately after death the body still exists, so where are you? How can you be the body and not be here while the body is here?

What makes a dead body different than an alive body? There is something non physical animating it. This consciousness is aware of the phenomena animating everything.

It's called "life".

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Speakpigeon
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Re: "Having the impression that you are raising a child is just that, an impression. It doesn't mean there's a child at

Post by Speakpigeon » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:30 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:29 pm
Sez someone who has no kids.
Says someone who doesn't know what he is talking about.
henry quirk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:29 pm
Believe it buddy: if you had a kid, you'd KNOW solipsism is horseshit.
I commiserate.
Reality is what it is.
Many people are essentially mentally dysfunctional. That's also reality. Solipsism, to the extent it's not make-believe or a way to call attention on oneself is a mental condition. Saying it is horseshit won't make it go away because, you know, reality just doesn't go away.
EB

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Speakpigeon
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Speakpigeon » Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:48 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:57 pm
So you are saying that you think a baby could without aid create English for itself?
No.
You're the proof of that.
Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:57 pm
So how does the squirrel run up the same tree as me when the wolf is about?
Exactly.
EB

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henry quirk
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Post by henry quirk » Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:32 pm

pigeon,

if solipsism is true: am I your delusion, or are you mine?

Impenitent
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Impenitent » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:38 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:11 am
Impenitent wrote:
"we" exist only in your thoughts

-Imp
There you go again, "we"?
This is why we found the best way to deal with the solipsist is to just keep punching them. As what you are saying is if I stand in front of you and you shut your eyes and don't think about me I don't exist, well I have a big wake up call for "you". :)
I do not deny the possible existence of an external world, you simply asked me to give you an argument to demonstrate how language could be a totally internally created entity. I do deny your "proof" of said external world.

esse est percipi - Berkeley

-Imp

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henry quirk
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Imp, if solipsism is true: am I your delusion, or are you mine?

Post by henry quirk » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:46 am

schizophrenics wanna know

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Arising_uk
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:57 am

Impenitent wrote:I do not deny the possible existence of an external world, you simply asked me to give you an argument to demonstrate how language could be a totally internally created entity. ...
Sorry I must have missed it?
I do deny your "proof" of said external world. ...
Actually it's a proof of an other or do you claim that if it was possible to raise a baby without contact it would speak English or any other such language of your choice?
esse est percipi - Berkeley

-Imp
So what is perceiving you if you are a solipsist?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:04 am

Speakpigeon wrote:No. ...
No what? That a baby couldn't create such a language as ours or that it could?
You're the proof of that.
Don't be a twat.
Exactly.
EB
What do you mean "exactly"?
You said,
... However, in fact, you don't really know that there is a house, let alone one that is exactly like you see it. Still, you just can't stop yourself believing there's a house. ...
Which presumably means you think it only a belief rather than a fact that the tree is there, so how is it that both the squirrel and I see that there is a tree there? As presumably squirrels don't have beliefs.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Arising_uk » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:22 am

roydop wrote:There is no description for the Absolute. The Tao De Ching says: "The Tao that is spoken is not the true Tao."
I thought it said "Tao (The Way) that can be spoken of is not the Constant Tao’"?
Are you serious? You presently exist. There is only the present. You can't figure it out from here? (Hint: time is an illusion)
Aging isn't.
If you are the body then while the body exists so do you. Immediately after death the body still exists, so where are you? How can you be the body and not be here while the body is here? ...
Have you not seen a dead body?
What makes a dead body different than an alive body? ...
Well as a starter for ten the former is not breathing.
There is something non physical animating it. ...
There are twelve main systems that 'animate' a body; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... human_body
This consciousness is aware of the phenomena animating everything.

It's called "life".
This is a reification, there is no 'life' just living things.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:57 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:22 am
Have you not seen a dead body?
Have you seen the seer of a dead body?

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:07 am

It's called "life".
Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:22 am
This is a reification, there is no 'life' just living things.
No thing is alive.

You have no way of knowing if you are alive or dead. Who told you you are alive and that one day you will die?

Did you from your first person appearance witness your own birth? will you witness your own death?
You have no knowledge of such states as birth and death.

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:11 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:04 am
Which presumably means you think it only a belief rather than a fact that the tree is there, so how is it that both the squirrel and I see that there is a tree there? As presumably squirrels don't have beliefs.
No concept has sight. There is no squirrel in a squirrel, no body in a body, no tree in a tree, there's just imageless treeing.
A squirrel is just the imageless squirreling, and a body is just the imageless bodying.

There isn't even a tree there, it's just an empty conceptual image of the imageless. Who sees the tree? is the tree looking at you, or are you looking at the tree, how can you separate yourself from the tree? you are creating the tree out of you, and the tree is creating you out of itself in the same instantaneous moment.

.

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Dontaskme
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:44 am

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:54 pm
Personally I think the delusion lays with those who think there can be a mind/ego(whatever the latter means?) without a body.
The body doesn't die. The thought of you dies, but even the thought is an illusion, there are no thoughts either...only seemingly so. The assumption I am thinking is hard wired into the programme that is the human brain, and never is any proper thought to who is actually doing the thinking looked at. All we do is say I am thinking, but even that idea is still a thought. Thought can never capture the immediate movement of life that no thing is living. Thought divides what cannot be divided, it freezeframes what is always in constant flux, in truth thought is always of the past, giving the illusory continuity of something living now, but even the now is constantly dissolving into the past. .and the past is the only place the mind/body organism can live. It's lives via the memory, it's a living corpse.

Arising_uk thinks it is Arising_uk lying inside that casket...that's the power of thought.

Yet a mind has no means to reflect itself as a thing, it's empty to the core, it's a myth made up by thought itself, and even thought has no image, the mind that has no image of itself except what it artifically conceives in it's own imaginary conception...as a concept known.

There is no death for the body, only an exchange of atoms. Their changing places and taking different forms is what we call death. It's a process which restores the energy level in nature that has gone down. In reality, nothing is born and nothing is dead.

.

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Speakpigeon
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Re:

Post by Speakpigeon » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:20 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 10:32 pm
pigeon,
if solipsism is true: am I your delusion, or are you mine?
The question isn't whether it's true but whether you can know that it is true or that it is false.
Even if we all exist, as I believe, I still don't know that you do. I know I exist so I'm sure I exist. But I don't know that you do, so although I believe you exist, I can't be sure because I don't really know it. And that will be true for all of us.
And then, possibly, I'm the only one to exist, but even then, I don't know I'm the only one.
And if you exist, you're each of you in the same "predicament". You know you exist but you don't know whether other people are real or just a figment of your feverish imagination.
But that's OK, since obviously that doesn't seem to disturb you.
Obviously, the "natural" perspective is not only to believe other people exist, but also not even realise that you don't actually know. So, in effect, you all believe that you know other people exist. Ah, well, but you don't really know. You just believe you know.
To take one's perception of the world for granted like this is called "naive realism", i.e. you naively believe your perception is true of the world. Again, that's the default position, since people have really other things to do than to worry about that. And we can assume that it's a relatively recent idea. The word itself and the philosophy date from the 19th century. Still, it seems to me the Ancient Greeks had understood it was a possibility. The Greek Pre-Socratic Sophist Gorgias claimed that 1) nothing exists; 2) even if something exists, nothing can be known about it; and 3) even if something could be known about it, knowledge about it cannot be communicated to others. This is regarded as the origin of the idea in the West.
It's also an idea the solipsist would have no rational reason to try and convince other people that it's true since if you're solipsist, you think other people don't exist. But a solipsist may still want to convince you because solipsism makes rationality a vacuous game.
This also means that anyone could be a solipsist in disguise. Or even a solipsist on Sundays and a realist the rest of the time. Without logical contradiction.
In other words, I don't see that it could matter in any way.
Hence my question: why are you trying to convince other people solipsism is somehow wrong?
EB

roydop
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by roydop » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:28 pm

You are the only "thing" that exists absolutely (not relative to anything else).

You are the singular consciousness that I am. The Absolute ("God", "Tao", whatever one wants to call It) appears as the world.

If one wishes to not realize such, one is free to continue in the delusion. If one wishes to be free of the illusion then one frees oneself from the thought process.

As long as mind/thought prevails, so does the illusion.

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