Solipsism cannot be true

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Speakpigeon
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Speakpigeon » Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:14 am

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
Have you ever known anything other than your existence? To believe that you will not exist is an assumption. It literally is. Now does one take a perspective based on facts or assumptions?
Basically, we do as we please.
So, me, I start with facts, and then I do like everyone else still alive, rely a lot on assumptions.
Because anyone limiting himself to the facts of his own subjective experience would die rather quickly. We survived because there is a lot of assumptions we use, and we don't even think about them.
Alternatively, you could try to prove to me that you never rely on any assumption whatsoever.
roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
The world goes away in dreamless sleep and yet you still exist.
Try to prove that.
roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
The world is dependent upon consciousness.

Not the world as I think of it. So, you would need to prove that.
roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
Maxwell Planck: "I consider consciousness as fundamental, I consider matter to be derivative." This has all been proven, people.
Maxwell?! Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck.
And no, he didn't know that. It's tautological that the idea of matter is derivative. However, that in itself doesn't prove there is nothing like matter as we conceive it independent of our mind.
Unless you could prove it?
EB

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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by roydop » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:07 pm

roydop wrote: "The world goes away in dreamless sleep and yet you still exist."

"Try to prove that."

Um, it happens every night. Can you see from first person perspective?

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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by roydop » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:14 pm

Speakpigeon wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:14 am
roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
Have you ever known anything other than your existence? To believe that you will not exist is an assumption. It literally is. Now does one take a perspective based on facts or assumptions?
Basically, we do as we please.
So, me, I start with facts, and then I do like everyone else still alive, rely a lot on assumptions.
Because anyone limiting himself to the facts of his own subjective experience would die rather quickly. We survived because there is a lot of assumptions we use, and we don't even think about them.
Alternatively, you could try to prove to me that you never rely on any assumption whatsoever.
roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
The world goes away in dreamless sleep and yet you still exist.
Try to prove that.
roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
The world is dependent upon consciousness.

Not the world as I think of it. So, you would need to prove that.
roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
Maxwell Planck: "I consider consciousness as fundamental, I consider matter to be derivative." This has all been proven, people.
Maxwell?! Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck.
And no, he didn't know that. It's tautological that the idea of matter is derivative. However, that in itself doesn't prove there is nothing like matter as we conceive it independent of our mind.
Unless you could prove it?
EB
So let's stick to reality.

You exist (that fact that you are reading this is the proof). I trust you don't require me to prove this to you in conceptual form.

It is an assumption that you will cease to exist. So you would have to prove to me that you will not exist.

So prove it.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:06 pm

Speakpigeon wrote: From a solipsist point of view, the phenomena of subjective experience are not epistemologically significant. Having the impression that you are seeing a tree is just that, an impression. It doesn't mean there's a tree at all. So, language? It just happens. No need to invent it.
EB
And yet it takes two for it to "just happen" or do you claim that if it was possible to raise baby on it's own without any contact it would be able to talk *add your language here* to itself?
p.s.
An example of these "impressions"?
Last edited by Arising_uk on Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:12 pm

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
Have you ever known anything other than your existence? To believe that you will not exist is an assumption. It literally is. Now does one take a perspective based on facts or assumptions?
Do you believe you existed before you were born and that you will exist after you are dead as these are also assumptions.
The world goes away in dreamless sleep and yet you still exist. ...
Because I'm a body not dreaming. I have it on good authority that the world still exists whilst I'm not dreaming as my wife cannot sleep due to my snoring and I have the bruises to prove it when I awake.
The world is dependent upon consciousness.
In a sense it is true that when I die a part of the world dies with me but that part is the experience of the world given by the senses.
Maxwell Planck: "I consider consciousness as fundamental, I consider matter to be derivative." This has all been proven, people.
Fundamental to what?

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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by roydop » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:30 pm

Round round we go.

I am relating direct experience. All questions conclude in/as thought free Awareness.

Until the perfect contentment of pure Awareness (thought free state) is effortlessly experienced, you won't understand what is being related.

roydop
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by roydop » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:55 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:12 pm
roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
Have you ever known anything other than your existence? To believe that you will not exist is an assumption. It literally is. Now does one take a perspective based on facts or assumptions?
Do you believe you existed before you were born and that you will exist after you are dead as these are also assumptions.
The world goes away in dreamless sleep and yet you still exist. ...
Because I'm a body not dreaming. I have it on good authority that the world still exists whilst I'm not dreaming as my wife cannot sleep due to my snoring and I have the bruises to prove it when I awake.
The world is dependent upon consciousness.
In a sense it is true that when I die a part of the world dies with me but that part is the experience of the world given by the senses.
Maxwell Planck: "I consider consciousness as fundamental, I consider matter to be derivative." This has all been proven, people.
Fundamental to what?
You are starting a "turtles all the way" treadmill. You (not the thoughts/sensations you experience) are the Absolute.

My perspective is always first person. You are relying on a third party (in this case your wife) to validate your position. That is not scientific.

I presently exist. Given that there is only ever the present... well it's self evident.

But mind/ego, believing self to be a convolution of body and thoughts, will try to defend it's incorrect perspective. One can only think oneself deeper into delusion.

roydop
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by roydop » Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:56 pm

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:55 pm
Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:12 pm
roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
Have you ever known anything other than your existence? To believe that you will not exist is an assumption. It literally is. Now does one take a perspective based on facts or assumptions?
Do you believe you existed before you were born and that you will exist after you are dead as these are also assumptions.
The world goes away in dreamless sleep and yet you still exist. ...
Because I'm a body not dreaming. I have it on good authority that the world still exists whilst I'm not dreaming as my wife cannot sleep due to my snoring and I have the bruises to prove it when I awake.
The world is dependent upon consciousness.
In a sense it is true that when I die a part of the world dies with me but that part is the experience of the world given by the senses.
Maxwell Planck: "I consider consciousness as fundamental, I consider matter to be derivative." This has all been proven, people.
Fundamental to what?
You are starting a "turtles all the way" treadmill. You (not the thoughts/sensations you experience) are the Absolute.

My perspective is always first person. You are relying on a third party (in this case your wife) to validate your position. That is not scientific.

I presently exist. Given that there is only ever the present... well it's self evident.

But mind/ego, believing self to be a convolution of body and thoughts, will try to defend it's incorrect perspective. This brings about the illusion of time and all varieties of suffering.

One can only think oneself deeper into delusion.

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Speakpigeon
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Speakpigeon » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:21 pm

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:07 pm
roydop wrote: "The world goes away in dreamless sleep and yet you still exist."
"Try to prove that."
Um, it happens every night. Can you see from first person perspective?
Sure, but that in itself doesn't prove the world doesn't exist as you seem to suggest.
EB

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Speakpigeon
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Speakpigeon » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:27 pm

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:14 pm
Speakpigeon wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 11:14 am
roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 3:56 am
Maxwell Planck: "I consider consciousness as fundamental, I consider matter to be derivative." This has all been proven, people.
And no, he didn't know that. It's tautological that the idea of matter is derivative. However, that in itself doesn't prove there is nothing like matter as we conceive it independent of our mind.
Unless you could prove it?
You exist (that fact that you are reading this is the proof). I trust you don't require me to prove this to you in conceptual form.
It is an assumption that you will cease to exist. So you would have to prove to me that you will not exist.
So prove it.
I never suggested i could.
You, however, did assert that the view that matter is derivative from consciousness has been proven. Where's the proof?
EB

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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Speakpigeon » Tue Mar 26, 2019 5:40 pm

Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:06 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: From a solipsist point of view, the phenomena of subjective experience are not epistemologically significant. Having the impression that you are seeing a tree is just that, an impression. It doesn't mean there's a tree at all. So, language? It just happens. No need to invent it.
And yet it takes two for it to "just happen" or do you claim that if it was possible to raise baby on it's own without any contact it would be able to talk *add your language here* to itself?
I'm afraid you don't seem able to understand my point, even though it's pretty basic.
I'll repeat. From a solipsist point of view, the phenomena of subjective experience are not epistemologically significant. Having the impression that you are raising a child is just that, an impression. It doesn't mean there's a child at all.
Arising_uk wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:06 pm
An example of these "impressions"?
All subjective phenomena are fundamentally impressions: impression of pain, impression of something remembered, impression you're hungry, impression the guy coming your way is a threat, impression life is not worth living, impression you've done a good job, etc. Normal people take these impressions as epistemologically significant, i.e. if you have the impression that you are seeing a house, you take it at face value that there is really a house. However, in fact, you don't really know that there is a house, let alone one that is exactly like you see it. Still, you just can't stop yourself believing there's a house. Most people are like this. Some people talk about being different in this respect, but I suspect it's just talk to get the attention of other people.
EB

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henry quirk
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"Having the impression that you are raising a child is just that, an impression. It doesn't mean there's a child at all.

Post by henry quirk » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:29 pm

Sez someone who has no kids. Believe it buddy: if you had a kid, you'd KNOW solipsism is horseshit.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:50 pm

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 4:30 pm
Round round we go.

I am relating direct experience. All questions conclude in/as thought free Awareness.

Until the perfect contentment of pure Awareness (thought free state) is effortlessly experienced, you won't understand what is being related.
What do you call a 'thought' and how do you attain this "pure Awareness"?

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Arising_uk
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:54 pm

roydop wrote:You are starting a "turtles all the way" treadmill. You (not the thoughts/sensations you experience) are the Absolute. ...
Absolute what? Personally I think there are phenomena and the noumena but it could just all be phenomena for all we could know about the noumena.
My perspective is always first person. You are relying on a third party (in this case your wife) to validate your position. That is not scientific. ...
Er!? That is exactly what the scientific perspective is.
I presently exist. Given that there is only ever the present... well it's self evident. ...
What is self-evident?
But mind/ego, believing self to be a convolution of body and thoughts, will try to defend it's incorrect perspective. One can only think oneself deeper into delusion.
Personally I think the delusion lays with those who think there can be a mind/ego(whatever the latter means?) without a body.

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Arising_uk
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Re: Solipsism cannot be true

Post by Arising_uk » Tue Mar 26, 2019 6:57 pm

Speakpigeon wrote:I'm afraid you don't seem able to understand my point, even though it's pretty basic.
I'll repeat. From a solipsist point of view, the phenomena of subjective experience are not epistemologically significant. Having the impression that you are raising a child is just that, an impression. It doesn't mean there's a child at all. ...
So you are saying that you think a baby could without aid create English for itself?
All subjective phenomena are fundamentally impressions: impression of pain, impression of something remembered, impression you're hungry, impression the guy coming your way is a threat, impression life is not worth living, impression you've done a good job, etc. Normal people take these impressions as epistemologically significant, i.e. if you have the impression that you are seeing a house, you take it at face value that there is really a house. However, in fact, you don't really know that there is a house, let alone one that is exactly like you see it. Still, you just can't stop yourself believing there's a house. Most people are like this. Some people talk about being different in this respect, but I suspect it's just talk to get the attention of other people.
EB
So how does the squirrel run up the same tree as me when the wolf is about?

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