These are major assumptions that make sense

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11011
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by 11011 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:18 pm

i think free will vs determinism is one of the silliest debates in philosophy, i mean it's philosophically relevant but it's given way more mainstream press coverage than it deserve, and it's almost as if it's used to justify real world policy decisions.

moreover, people confuse their attachment to society, their families, which drive them 'forward' with determinism, that is the extent to which they can relate to a 'deterministic feel' in their world, they confuse personality with determinism, giving it false credence as a universal truth.

it's one of those debates that should never have any real world relevance because even if 'determinism' were somehow the case, you know because atoms and molecules are colliding in predictable ways and so we're all just being carried along by cause-effect, it's too liable too being abused, the implications of that.

and it's circular reasoning. basically no matter what anyone says, like if is say, ok but what about human deviance, or people who apparently think or act outside of social reality, etc. well determinists will say 'its all determined' or 'it's meant to be' like no matter how much practical choice humans show determinists will argue like evolutionists argue that a trait is adaptive merely by fact that it exists

x person, behaviour, deviance, etc. was determined because it exists!

silliest argument ever.

determinism is just a way for people to reduce the cognitive dissonance they feel between their lives in modern society which entail a substantial lack of choice and willful behaviour as we are expected to fill social roles like automaton, and the FREE WILL they evidently know and feel within them. by coming up with a worldview that humans are 'just along for the ride' they can reduce their self-hate at their cowardice in conforming to what is essentially the will of others (who themselves may or may not be acting out of their own true free will), because they are just acting in line 'with how the universe really is'

there is nothing pushing humans forward or in a particular direction. if we wanted it, we could blow up the entire planet right now, or all drop our pants and moon the sky, or do any number of other random things, and even if this were to be a collective action, a collective action is merely an agreement among individuals to do the same behaviour, or different behaviours acting toward the same goal, it is not the manifestation of some universal plan unfolding outside of human choice lol

Logik
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by Logik » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:57 pm

11011 wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:18 pm
i think free will vs determinism is one of the silliest debates in philosophy, i mean it's philosophically relevant but it's given way more mainstream press coverage than it deserve, and it's almost as if it's used to justify real world policy decisions.
If you believe in objective morality (and I do) it's the only debate that matters. Yes - it is used to make real-world decisions a.k.a CHOICES. Both at the individual and policy level.

Science in 2019 believes in free will.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_theory
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_problem
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computational_complexity
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_machine

Choices are everywhere. Including the choice of whether you should believe in the scientific method or not.

Simply because for every choice you make, I can ask this question in a moralistic framework: Is your CHOICE "right" or "wrong"?

Age
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by Age » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:00 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:57 pm

Simply because for every choice you make, I can ask this question in a moralistic framework: Is your CHOICE "right" or "wrong"?
Well that is very simple and easy to work out.

Logik
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by Logik » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:02 pm

Age wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:00 pm
Well that is very simple and easy to work out.
No, it's not.

On what timeline do you consider the consequences of your actions?
1 year?
5 years?
50 years?
500 years?
5000 years?
50000 years?

Can you predict that far into the future, Mr I Have Knowledge?

Age
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by Age » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:20 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:02 pm
Age wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:00 pm
Well that is very simple and easy to work out.
No, it's not.
Just because you have NOT yet work out what is Truly Right and Wrong that does NOT mean that it is NOT very simple and easy to work out.
Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:02 pm
On what timeline do you consider the consequences of your actions?
1 year?
5 years?
50 years?
500 years?
5000 years?
50000 years?
For ALL "time", obviously.

What is Truly Right would obviously NOT be for anything other than for ALL "time",
Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:02 pm
Can you predict that far into the future, Mr I Have Knowledge?
Yes, mr, mrs, or miss short sighted.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by Logik » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:23 pm

Age wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:20 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:02 pm
Can you predict that far into the future, Mr I Have Knowledge?
Yes, mr, mrs, or miss short sighted.
You've failed every single test where you made this claim.

The evidence leans towards "You are lying".

REALLY easy way to verify your claim. Post the winning numbers for the 29th March 2019 EuroMillions lottery in this thread.

https://www.euro-millions.com/results

Age
Posts: 3143
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by Age » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:34 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:23 pm
Age wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:20 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:02 pm
Can you predict that far into the future, Mr I Have Knowledge?
Yes, mr, mrs, or miss short sighted.
You've failed every single test where you made this claim
.

What test have I ever supposedly attempted?
Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:23 pm
The evidence leans towards "You are lying".

REALLY easy way to verify your claim. Post the winning numbers for the 29th March 2019 EuroMillions lottery in this thread.

https://www.euro-millions.com/results
We WERE discussing about CHOICES relating to Right and Wrong, regarding a moralistic framework.

Lotteries and money has just about NOTHING to with what we WERE discussing.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by Logik » Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:53 pm

Age wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:34 pm
We WERE discussing about CHOICES relating to Right and Wrong, regarding a moralistic framework.
No, we weren't. You are confused. We were discussing whether you can predict the future.

I asked you if you can predict events into the future.
Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:02 pm
Can you predict that far into the future, Mr I Have Knowledge?
You confirmed that you can:
Age wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:20 pm
Yes, mr, mrs, or miss short sighted.
Age wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 4:34 pm
Lotteries and money has just about NOTHING to with what we WERE discussing.
The lottery numbers will be happening on the 29th March 2019.
That is about 4 days in the future. You don't have to PLAY (and therefore this is not about money).

All you need to do is predict the numbers for us.

I am waiting.

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:18 pm

Logic wrote:
If you believe in objective morality ( and I do )
Subjective is the context of an object from the perspective of a subject while objective is context free because there
is no subject to actually provide any perspective. You therefore can not have a subject claiming anything as objective

surreptitious57
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:39 pm

Logic wrote:
Simply because for every choice you make I can ask this question in a moralistic framework : Is your CHOICE right or wrong ?
What if my moralistic framework says it is right and your moralistic framework says it is wrong ?
Do you have a methodology that will resolve such a dilemma to mutual satisfaction every time ?

11011
Posts: 121
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by 11011 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 7:00 pm

i do.

but you have to accept the realization of the greatest equal happiness for everyone surviving birth as the ultimate and only worthwhile value worth pursuing given the human condition.

- every word of the above criteria is critical and holds significance in this methodology, which i will briefly elaborate on below

- the second part - the rationale - is based on a particular view of the universe, humans' place in it, and the human condition in general, all conclusions which i've determined to be the best answers to the fundamental questions of philosophy that we are capable of producing, which in turn is based on the acceptance that it is in humanity's and individuals' best interest to answer such questions and answer them now with what they have despite limitations or incomplete information

so i will explain the criteria by key words:

- the greatest happiness means a life full of the emotion joy, with the least negative experience, to the greatest extent possible

- the level and amount/frequency of joy achieved must be accessible - but also refusable - for each individual; that is, no one should have access to more than someone else is capable of accessing, because perceptions of unfairness will ruin the merit of this system; it must also be refusable, people must always have a choice when it comes to their experience, the point is to provide them among other options with the choice of experiencing the greatest joy so they won't complain, as people can only complain about something, such as that someone is better off than them unfairly, if they lack access. if they don't lack access they won't complain, so this gives people both choice but also has a check/balance for the inevitable outcome of unfettered choice, which undermines the whole rationale for choice to begin with. in other words, this is the equivalent of humanity having their cake and eating it too, worked out by me

(think about the above carefully as it's the most important part solving a key issue in human societies that has been with us forever, appearing in such debates as capitalism vs socialism, etc; it is a persistent theme but there is an ultimate solution that takes into account the most relevant yet often unmentioned factors and negotiates/arranges them perfectly so as to produce the ultimate desired outcome)

- the third and 2nd last major point is also this system's greatest weakness; it can't tolerate major genetic differences between people, so if an infant is born with certain obvious deformities or handicap it may have to be killed (in the most humane/respectful way possible), and the mother/father will be utterly supported in having another child; it would probably take a much more lengthy discussion to persuade some of you to my side on this one, especially in the current climate we live in, but just let me say here that as far as the infant is concerned, there is no harm being done to them, because babies don't even have a sense of self yet, nor memory; it's as if they were not even born, there is no negative experience on the part of such an infant, the only people who might 'suffer' from this are the grown up living, and projecting that onto the infant who does not share their experience is not enlightened to say the least

- and finally, and most relevant to this thread, what is right and wrong is to be judged according to whatever threatens this system, in particular the ultimate value/outcome/italicized criteria. so when a sentence is given for wrongful behaviour to an individual, it will be clearly explained to them how their behaviour was wrong via its connection to the system; this is in contrast to our current legal system with laws that lack a consistent, clear connection to any moral system, let alone one that could be universally agreed upon; and that is the crux of this system, it is fashioned such that i believe were humans to fully understand it/experience it in the context of the human condition, it would receive a 100% approval rating, it is the ultimate practical utopia, to the extent that humans are aware and accepting of what they really want and which is worthwhile pursuing in their lifetime given the human condition time immemorial

minor points:
- under this system, all children will receive a comprehensive education in the laws and rationales when they are biologically capable of reason, not to indoctrinate or brainwash them, but to have them understand why, again so they can't complain; and this isn't to say all people will then act like angels always, the point of this is to create a perfect system where any human faults remaining are just that: human faults. and that's ok. sometimes people will act irrationally, that's ok. but it is in the duty of society and morality as a social institution to be perfectly designed, so humans have noone to blame but themselves as individuals acting in every moment, as this inspires the best in people, without being demanding or too out of touch with what feels good and natural

- things like level of technology permissible, etc, the world over will all follow from the ultimate value/outcome/criteria in italics; in other words, just as behavior of individuals on a micro scale will be judged accordingly, so will all policy decisions

and that's it.

questions? agree/disagree?

this is what i call going beyond moral relativism...without going back. that is, this is the next enlightened step or resolution to the typical dichotomy of arbitrary (or poorly based) morality vs moral relativism. it resolves the drawbacks of both stances.

surreptitious57
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:10 pm

II0II wrote:
the greatest happiness means a life full of the emotion joy with the least negative experience to the greatest extent possible

the level and amount / frequency of joy achieved must be accessible - but also refusable - for each individual - that is no one should have access
to more than someone else is capable of accessing because perceptions of unfairness will ruin the merit of this system - it must also be refusable people must always have a choice when it comes to their experience - the point is to provide them among other options with the choice
of experiencing the greatest joy so they wont complain - as people can only complain about something such as that someone is better off than
them unfairly if they lack access - if they dont lack access they wont complain so this gives people both choice but also has a check / balance
for the inevitable outcome of unfettered choice which undermines the whole rationale for choice to begin with - in other words this is the
equivalent of humanity having their cake and eating it too worked out by me
Utopia [ as that is what you have suggested here in all but name ] and reality are completely
incompatible so most of what you have written is of no use at all - here are the reasons why :

You cannot reduce negative experiences for everyone
You cannot allocate equal levels of joy for everyone
You should be responsible for your state of mind not the system
Having access to the system will not protect it from any criticism

surreptitious57
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:20 pm

II0II wrote:
( think about the above carefully as it is the most important part solving a key issue in human societies that has been with us forever appearing in such debates as capitalism vs socialism etc - it is a persistent theme but there is an ultimate solution that takes into account the most relevant and yet often unmentioned factors and negotiates / arranges them perfectly so as to produce the ultimate desired outcome )
Can you provide any real world examples for this so called ultimate solution ?
If you can not that might be because it is not as ultimate a solution as you think it is
Without any successful examples no vision of Utopia is worth the paper its written on

surreptitious57
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:38 pm

II0II wrote:
our current legal system with laws that lack a consistent clear connection to any moral system - let alone one that could be universally agreed up
on and that is the crux of this system - it is fashioned such that I believe were humans to fully understand it / experience it in the context of the human condition it would receive a I00 per cent approval rating - it is the ultimate practical utopia to the extent that humans are aware and accepting of what they really want and which is worthwhile pursuing in their lifetime given the human condition time immemorial
Laws are the codification of morality so to say they lack connection to any moral system is demonstrably false
What you actually mean is you dont approve of current legislation or the moral system that it is derived from

No moral system has ever had a I00 per cent approval rating and never will because morality is not objective

The term ultimate practical utopia is an oxymoron because Utopia is just too idealist a notion to even be remotely practical
Also the human condition has suffering in all of its forms as standard so attempting Utopia from that is even more impossible

surreptitious57
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Re: These are major assumptions that make sense

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:47 pm

You mean well but your approach is fundamentally wrong and here is why :

You are attempting to solve it from top down when it can only be done from bottom up
And talking about solving it is also wrong because the human condition cannot be fixed

So the best that can be done is to make small incremental changes both individually and collectively very slowly over time
And remove all notions of Utopia or ultimate solutions from consideration as they are of no use at all - entirely superfluous

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