WHY DO YOU THINK WE ARE HERE? WHY DO WE EXIST?

[11011]

interesting take seeds,

if by perfect we mean 'cannot be improved' then the world may not be perfect as it is, as even as we speak, it is changing in ways which by some accounts at least constitute improvement or degeneration. perfect as a state precludes improvement or degeneration. however, what if the world is necessarily evolving and is doing so perfectly? unless one has some insight into the true goal of the world, and evidence that it is firmly on the tracks in its progress toward that goal, and cannot reach that goal any better than by what it is doing now, then it will be hard to say that it is perfect as far as potential for improvement is concerned.

if by perfect we mean utopia then the world is not perfect in this sense because not everyone is happy, or at least they make unfavorable comparisons between themselves and others, so as to preclude a utopia which usually caters to everyone more or less equally or so ti is typically portrayed. so even if you think such shortcomings are inevitable, the fact that history shows different periods with different magnitudes of positive vs negative experience for humans overall, means that the world as it is now cannot be a utopia unless you can show that it boasts the highest magnitude of positive human experience or contentment thus far, and that no greater magnitude is realizable in the future.

What if the intention of the universe was to make humans doubt that a designer exists?

In which case, wouldn't the “countless faults” you are alluding to be a perfect way of establishing that doubt?

i could think of other (better) ways, that is to say more effective or thorough. like for example, just creating a blindspot in the human mind when it comes to the entire issue.

also if humans really were meant to doubt the existence of a creator, why do they show a striking susceptibility to believing in one? in fact, i would say even today more people believe in a creator in some form than don't, historically even more so.

the human tendency is to believe, some people have even called it a psychical archetype as if the human mind yearns for it, not to doubt, when it comes to this one.

imo, the only thing that offsets this tendency is when technology reaches a point where humans feel, and become arrogant enough, that they no longer need a creator, that is how strong the impulse is.

so if it was part of a creator's design to make us doubt their existence, the very fact we are talking about them now, and the ubiquity of the creationist theme in human religions and history, i wouldn't say they did a very good job.

[Ferdi]

Re Seeds: What makes you think that the world isn’t perfect as it is? A long 9 decades competing for a living, more suffering than joy.

Re Seeds: What if the intention of the universe was to make humans doubt that a designer exists? You are free to use “what ifs” and you may guess about intentions. I see plain natural evolution and the law of the jungle.

[seeds]

interesting take seeds,

if by perfect we mean 'cannot be improved' then the world may not be perfect as it is, as even as we speak, it is changing in ways which by some accounts at least constitute improvement or degeneration. perfect as a state precludes improvement or degeneration.

From my Idealistic/Panentheistic perspective, the universe is a mentally produced illusion that is designed to awaken new eternal souls into existence while simultaneously keeping the eternality of the souls a secret from them until the event of physical death.

And in that regard the world is working perfectly in keeping that secret intact.

In which case, I wasn’t really intending to suggest that some kind of Platonic form of perfection was in play here (whatever that would be), but more of how perfectly the integrity of the illusion (and the keeping of the secret) is being maintained.

however, what if the world is necessarily evolving and is doing so perfectly? unless one has some insight into the true goal of the world, and evidence that it is firmly on the tracks in its progress toward that goal, and cannot reach that goal any better than by what it is doing now, then it will be hard to say that it is perfect as far as potential for improvement is concerned.

You’ve made some excellent observations,11011, however, to slightly paraphrase something I stated in an alternate thread...

...I suggest that the ultimate goal of evolution has already been achieved.

And that goal was the manifestation of a brain that is capable of producing the conditions wherein the essence of life can be focalized and awakened into a new and eternal soul – a soul that is created in the image of the Soul of the universe (God).

Now of course, if you can think of a better method for achieving that goal in a way that will not breach the integrity (and secret) of the illusion of objective reality, then let’s hear it.

if by perfect we mean utopia then the world is not perfect in this sense because not everyone is happy, or at least they make unfavorable comparisons between themselves and others, so as to preclude a utopia which usually caters to everyone more or less equally or so ti is typically portrayed. so even if you think such shortcomings are inevitable, the fact that history shows different periods with different magnitudes of positive vs negative experience for humans overall, means that the world as it is now cannot be a utopia unless you can show that it boasts the highest magnitude of positive human experience or contentment thus far, and that no greater magnitude is realizable in the future.

Needless to say this is all just speculation, however, in order for you to understand where I am coming from it is essential that you realize that all of the circumstances of life that surround us during our temporary stay within the universe hold no more relevance than that of the amniotic water that surrounded us during our temporary stay within our mother’s womb.

I believe that the difference between our present circumstances and that of the circumstances that await us following physical death is that profound.

The point is that from the perspective of our potential eternal life in a higher context of reality, the only thing that truly mattered with respect to our momentary stay within the universe was the awakening of our minds/souls into existence.

What if the intention of the universe was to make humans doubt that a designer exists?

In which case, wouldn't the “countless faults” you are alluding to be a perfect way of establishing that doubt?

i could think of other (better) ways, that is to say more effective or thorough. like for example, just creating a blindspot in the human mind when it comes to the entire issue.

It’s already been done, 11011.

As I pointed out earlier in the thread, humans are functioning at a purposely attenuated level of consciousness that prevents us from being constantly aware of how strange it is to be spinning around (topsy-turvy) on an orb of reality that is flying through space at 67,000 miles per hour (see this post here - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25485&start=300#p396736).

In other words, we are indeed being affected by a “blindspot” in such a way that prevents most of us from realizing that a blindspot exists - (of which hardcore materialists are the most severely affected ).

And it is that blindspot (that attenuated level of consciousness), working in tandem with the aforementioned “countless faults” of the world that helps to ensure the opacity of the veil that separates our lower dimension of reality from the higher dimension of reality that awaits us.
_______

[attofishpi]

I believe that IF there is a creator (s)he's a total idiot.

Y?

[attofishpi]

According to the plans, it would be a perfect world: no suffering, no pain, no fear, no hatred.

No need to learn to find cures, to find the answers to the universe, to feel love in bereavement, to console one another etc etc...

In other words - some sort of boring utopia - indeed, as all atheists believe - if there is a God - we should ALL BE IN HEAVEN.

Fuck you lack comprehension.

[Ferdi]

It ought to be superfluous but it may be noted that we do not live in utopia and that our planet is but a speck in our existing Universe which has been evolving since the start of time; time being a human finite concept.
Apart from the material that we can “observe” to exist in the universe, the enormous variety of ”life” on earth is evidence of natural evolution. Our free will, up to the time of our death, allows us some choice through the labyrinth of life. On death any unanswered questions become superfluous and knowledge becomes irrelevant when that individual’s life has returned into the omnipresent Universe. We are familiar with the concept of infinity. Infinity is not a figment of our imagination. It is worthwhile to note that infinity provides an inkling of concepts beyond our imagination. All will be instantly revealed at the instant of death.
The fact of having experienced, of “knowing” joy and sorrow, success and failure, during life, gives some idea of the infinite possibilities in the Universe. Any concepts of an afterlife, a label of “souls” merely serve earthbound religious beliefs.
The crucial question: where does life disappear to? Is logically answered by: any life will go back to where it came from! Anyone present at any birth, like anyone present at any death, may bear witness to life’s coming and going, i.e. its origin and destination are beyond our dimensions.

[JackMcConick]

Nobody knows for sure, but I think existing in this world is meant to be a path to learning what unconditional love is. And learning to live by it. Expanding your consciousness, being in relationships, having kids, studying the physics of the world, practicing conscious presence... there are lots of ways to get closer to that goal.
Toddlerie review - Eaterbox review

[attofishpi]

I believe that IF there is a creator (s)he's a total idiot.

Y?

[attofishpi]

According to the plans, it would be a perfect world: no suffering, no pain, no fear, no hatred.

No need to learn to find cures, to find the answers to the universe, to feel love in bereavement, to console one another etc etc...

In other words - some sort of boring utopia - indeed, as most atheists appear to believe - if there is a God - we should ALL BE IN HEAVEN.

Geez you are a saucy little Sue with your lack of comprehension.

[-1-]

According to the plans, it would be a perfect world: no suffering, no pain, no fear, no hatred.

No need to learn to find cures, to find the answers to the universe, to feel love in bereavement, to console one another etc etc...

In other words - some sort of boring utopia - indeed, as most atheists appear to believe - if there is a God - we should ALL BE IN HEAVEN.

Geez you are a saucy little Sue with your lack of comprehension.

You're right. It is hard to comprehend reality. Einstein's theory of relativity is extremely hard to comprehend, and I can only do it part of the way.

But a madman is completely impossible to comprehend.

Maybe that's the difference between a world that was created by an Intelligent designer, and another world (ours) that was created by a less than intelligent designer.

[-1-]

In other words - some sort of boring utopia - indeed, as all atheists believe - if there is a God - we should ALL BE IN HEAVEN.

IFF god is infinitely good and loving, as most (but not all) theists claim, then yes, the claim of all atheists would be valid. The two are inseparable.

If you say God is not infinitely good and loving, then He is a total jerk.

According to mainline Christianity, the creation was a blotched-up job. Because an infinitely good and loving god proved his lack of talent by not creating a world of loving and goodness which lacks all evil and wrongdoing and suffering. The mainline Christian god is a benevolent idiot who makes mistakes but not intentionally.

According to you, the God of all creation enjoys little people like you and me suffer. He enjoys torturing small little furry animals.

And you WORSHIP such a mean, ignorant creature? I guess each to his own.

If he existed, I'd say fuck that bastard.

[Logik]

I believe that IF there is a creator (s)he's a total idiot.

Y?

Because the creation is a total mess.

He/she left so much stuff for us to fix!

[attofishpi]

In other words - some sort of boring utopia - indeed, as all atheists believe - if there is a God - we should ALL BE IN HEAVEN.

IFF god is infinitely good and loving, as most (but not all) theists claim, then yes, the claim of all atheists would be valid. The two are inseparable.

If you say God is not infinitely good and loving, then He is a total jerk.

According to mainline Christianity, the creation was a blotched-up job. Because an infinitely good and loving god proved his lack of talent by not creating a world of loving and goodness which lacks all evil and wrongdoing and suffering. The mainline Christian god is a benevolent idiot who makes mistakes but not intentionally.

According to you, the God of all creation enjoys little people like you and me suffer. He enjoys torturing small little furry animals.

And you WORSHIP such a mean, ignorant creature? I guess each to his own.

If he existed, I'd say fuck that bastard.

Stop attempting to think you know me or what I do. I don't WORSHIP anything.
You see, the problem with an atheist like you (and i can understand, when on a Sunday morning my TV is bombared with American evangelists with perfect over white teeth), is that it is black or white, that you are viewing theism from an extremely narrow minded mindset which dictates that you must paint all theists with the same brush.

I for one know that God is a c@nt. ..and I say that from the POV that since the priests only talked about 'its' benevolence, and yet I was TORTURED by the fucker, and 'it' knew I had this view that it was all 'good'. As i've said before, i'd have rather been crucified than what this 'God' entity put me through.
But hey, now I am an apprentice to a sage, and whatever doesn't kill you will only make you stronger - i am a firm believer in that (from a psyche POV)

According to you, the God of all creation enjoys little people like you and me suffer. He enjoys torturing small little furry animals.

Where have I ever stated the c@nt enjoys it?

The first thing you need to understand is that entropy is a c@nt.

[Greta]

Atto, you have to make piece with entry. As the Hindus noticed with the construction of the deity, Shiva, that destruction is needed for regeneration.

Why are we here? Let's follow the breadcrumbs leading to us:

- Star ignition and planet formation
- Evolution of rocks and organic chemicals to states where abiogenesis was possible
- Biology was at first entirely about survival and reproduction
- Then they had to worry about threats - competition and predators
- Then they had to form alliances and bonds, hopefully resulting in
- Them having to find a way to get laid.
- Then they had to worry about the eggs, then the kids, then the whole family and community.

So life is becoming more aware and intelligent. That's the trend and Gould was wrong in claiming that evolution was a bush, not a ladder. Rather, there is bushiness lying between some clear rungs of the ladder - life, mulitcellularity, chordates, mammals humans, post-humans.

There is no reason to believe there are not further rungs for life to climb after us. My gut feeling (pun half intended) is that biology is only a phase that will be transcended by entities whose aims and goals would be far too subtle for us to know about - or care about, even if we understood - in much the same way as dogs don't much care about human aims and goals.

People seem to think it far fetched that something more aware and intelligent than humans could exist, but I think the likelihood of humans being as good as it gets in the universe looks far lower. The question would be why everything would stop with humans. They would need to explain why the impending death of large proportions of the world's population in the next century or so would prevent significant progress in the future.

[Dubious]

In short, pure happenstance. It must be demoralizing for humans not to be more important than any other random event.