Einstein on the train

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Age
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Re: Einstein on the train

Post by Age » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:12 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:31 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:09 pm
Is there only an "apparent" galactic redshift, or is there a real galactic redshift?
It is demonstrably the case (which I would call a 'fact') that the smaller a galaxy appears, the redder it also appears. One explanation is that they appear smaller, because they are more distant, and they appear redder because they are moving away faster. This is demonstrated in The Belgian Priest and the tiny dot, which starts on p6 https://willybouwman.blogspot.com
And there is the EASY explanation that "you" were seeking.
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:31 pm
It is conceivable that there is a better explanation, but whatever your idea is, if it doesn't account for the observational data, sorry me old China, but it's wrong.
There is a much better explanation.

WHY say "apparent", when "you" meant it has already been demonstrated, and actually demonstrated to the point that you would call it a fact?

So, to "you" the red shift is a fact. Now, does the red shift phenomena happen throughout ALL of the observable Universe, or just parts of It?

uwot
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Re: Einstein on the train

Post by uwot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:13 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:56 pm
Because it follows from our current model of/bias in understanding.

Which is simply based on the fundamental human ideal of consistency or universalism.
Do you have any data to support the claim that it is a "fundamental human ideal"?
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:56 pm
I don't even know if any of the "laws" of physics apply inside a black hole.
I don't even know if any of the "laws" of physics apply to the galaxy next door!
There is no evidence that galaxies we have observed in detail behave according to laws that don't apply to the Milky Way. Can't help thinking that any black hole we may be falling into is in the galaxy next door though.
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:56 pm
Everything is interpreted from our local perspective.
Well yeah, we're stuck with that.
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:56 pm
And my skepticism is born from information theory. I know what "consensus" means. It's basically real-time measurement triangulation.
How would you explain that to someone who is not a computer scientist?

Logik
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Re: Einstein on the train

Post by Logik » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:23 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:13 pm
Do you have any data to support the claim that it is a "fundamental human ideal"?
If you accept my previous argument that logic is ALL about the human mind, and not about reality.
Then Noether's first theorem literally mandates it.

We EXPECT symmetry (prediction). We are SURPRISED by asymmetry (falsification).

That's how information works.
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:13 pm
There is no evidence that galaxies we have observed in detail behave according to laws that don't apply to the Milky Way.
Because we haven't collected any evidence local to those galaxies. Unless we've mastered interstellar travel and you didn't tell us?
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:13 pm
Well yeah, we're stuck with that.
Naturally. Only because pragmatic necessity.
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:13 pm
How would you explain that to someone who is not a computer scientist?
Three measurements.
Three different locations.
EXACT SAME time (literally - synchronous)
Compare results.

This is actually a far better interpretation of the "ceteris paribus" principle. Most of our science rests on the assumption that we can control all the variables, when it's actually not true. We can't control entropy. So we normalize it...

Three experiments, at three locations guarantees (on average) same noise-levels in the information.

uwot
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Re: Einstein on the train

Post by uwot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:25 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:12 pm
So, to "you" the red shift is a fact.
No. As I said:
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:31 pm
It is demonstrably the case (which I would call a 'fact') that the smaller a galaxy appears, the redder it also appears. One explanation is that they appear smaller, because they are more distant, and they appear redder because they are moving away faster. This is demonstrated in The Belgian Priest and the tiny dot, which starts on p6 https://willybouwman.blogspot.com
Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:12 pm
Now, does the red shift phenomena happen throughout ALL of the observable Universe, or just parts of It?
That is what the observed data implies.

Age
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Re: Einstein on the train

Post by Age » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:38 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:25 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:12 pm
So, to "you" the red shift is a fact.
No. As I said:
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:31 pm
It is demonstrably the case (which I would call a 'fact') that the smaller a galaxy appears, the redder it also appears. One explanation is that they appear smaller, because they are more distant, and they appear redder because they are moving away faster. This is demonstrated in The Belgian Priest and the tiny dot, which starts on p6 https://willybouwman.blogspot.com
Here you say no, but in your quote that you added you say yes. If this is not correct, then can you explain?

Do you call red shift a fact or not.?
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:25 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:12 pm
Now, does the red shift phenomena happen throughout ALL of the observable Universe, or just parts of It?
That is what the observed data implies.
HOW could you MISS the "or" word in my question?

WHICH ONE does the observed data imply?

uwot
Posts: 4071
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Einstein on the train

Post by uwot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:40 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:23 pm
We EXPECT symmetry (prediction). We are SURPRISED by asymmetry (falsification).
That's the nature of inductive reasoning. Hume pointed that out 250 years ago. Science, in some respects, is the search for falsification.
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:23 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:13 pm
There is no evidence that galaxies we have observed in detail behave according to laws that don't apply to the Milky Way.
Because we haven't collected any evidence local to those galaxies. Unless we've mastered interstellar travel and you didn't tell us?
Well, you don't have to go to a galaxy to see how it behaves on the galactic scale. So far, they all appear to behave like the Milky Way.

uwot
Posts: 4071
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Einstein on the train

Post by uwot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:43 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:38 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:25 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:12 pm
Now, does the red shift phenomena happen throughout ALL of the observable Universe, or just parts of It?
That is what the observed data implies.
HOW could you MISS the "or" word in my question?
Might be something to do with being down the pub.
Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:38 pm
WHICH ONE does the observed data imply?
That redshift is universal.

Logik
Posts: 3881
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Einstein on the train

Post by Logik » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:46 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:40 pm
That's the nature of inductive reasoning. Hume pointed that out 250 years ago. Science, in some respects, is the search for falsification.
Understood and acknowledged. But since we now understand the mechanics of empiricism (Bayesian reasoning) we can falsify things AND confirm things in real time.

Automatically. In a distributed fashion.
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:40 pm
Well, you don't have to go to a galaxy to see how it behaves on the galactic scale. So far, they all appear to behave like the Milky Way.
We haven't observed how the Milky Way behaves. Because we are stuck inside it.

An intuition so trivial - everybody in a relationship understands the "inside" and "outside" perspective are different ;)

What you DO and what you SAY you do.... not QUITE the same thing.

Age
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Re: Einstein on the train

Post by Age » Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:50 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:43 pm
Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:38 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:25 pm
That is what the observed data implies.
HOW could you MISS the "or" word in my question?
Might be something to do with being down the pub.
Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:38 pm
WHICH ONE does the observed data imply?
That redshift is universal.
Okay. Now, is this shift always to the red, or sometimes to the blue?

uwot
Posts: 4071
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Einstein on the train

Post by uwot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:04 pm

Age wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:50 pm
Now, is this shift always to the red, or sometimes to the blue?
Off the top of my head, there are roughly 100 galaxies that show blue shift. They are either local, like Andromeda, and are being pulled together by gravity, or they are in the Virgo cluster, all of which is heading our way (if you buy the Doppler explanation)-part of the general turbulence of the universe, as far as we can tell. The other trillion or so all display redshift.

uwot
Posts: 4071
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Einstein on the train

Post by uwot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:17 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:46 pm
But since we now understand the mechanics of empiricism (Bayesian reasoning) we can falsify things AND confirm things in real time.

Automatically. In a distributed fashion.
See now, that's computer engineer speak. No idea what it means, but I'm pretty confident that if you could explain it in layman's English, I could tell you what the equivalent term in philosophy is; probably in English, German and French. Thing is, there are plenty of overlaps in maths, science and philosophy, here and abroad and while everyone is using a particular nomenclature, quite often they are talking about the same thing.
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:46 pm
We haven't observed how the Milky Way behaves. Because we are stuck inside it.

An intuition so trivial - everybody in a relationship understands the "inside" and "outside" perspective are different ;)
Well yeah, it could be that the Milky Way is an oddball that has it's own rules.
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:46 pm
What you DO and what you SAY you do.... not QUITE the same thing.
Sometimes not even close.

Logik
Posts: 3881
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Einstein on the train

Post by Logik » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:38 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:17 pm
See now, that's computer engineer speak. No idea what it means, but I'm pretty confident that if you could explain it in layman's English, I could tell you what the equivalent term in philosophy is; probably in English, German and French. Thing is, there are plenty of overlaps in maths, science and philosophy, here and abroad and while everyone is using a particular nomenclature, quite often they are talking about the same thing.
OK. Lets try again. The term is "consensus" - like scientists reach consensus. The only difference is the scale of the experiment.

A value of X is measured AND agreed upon by multiple, independent observers, but the time between each measurement (experiment? sampling?) can be weeks, years or decades apart from the previous experiments. So sure "ceteris paribus" but it's really best intention.

I am talking about doing the measurement/experiment at the SAME TIME. As in atomic clock synchronized "same time".
In different geographic locations. How different? How far can you go?

Measure some aspect about the Sun from Earth, Mars and Jupiter. WHILE they are their furthest apart.

Then compare notes. If you ever get your measurement equipment to agree on the answer - I will eat my own hat ;)

That's entropy fucking with us.

uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:17 pm
Well yeah, it could be that the Milky Way is an oddball that has it's own rules.
Not quite. The laws of physics we have measures are local. We infer that they apply to other galaxies from sample size of 1.
That is what I mean we ASSUME symmetry.

But until you measure it, it's just extrapolation from an anecdote. And ignoring entropy.

uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:17 pm
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:46 pm
What you DO and what you SAY you do.... not QUITE the same thing.
Sometimes not even close.
Because perspective (the observer) matters. Your reference frame matters.

uwot
Posts: 4071
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Einstein on the train

Post by uwot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:33 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:38 pm
OK. Lets try again. The term is "consensus" - like scientists reach consensus.
I take it then that TimeSeeker didn't read the Thomas Kuhn biography I wrote for Philosophy Now, the magazine that organises and pays for this forum. Should be on the shelves in a week or so, but can be read in draft form here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=25124&start=135
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:38 pm
I am talking about doing the measurement/experiment at the SAME TIME. As in atomic clock synchronized "same time".
Given what you know about relativity, what does "same time" mean?
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:38 pm
In different geographic locations. How different? How far can you go?

Measure some aspect about the Sun from Earth, Mars and Jupiter. WHILE they are their furthest apart.

Then compare notes. If you ever get your measurement equipment to agree on the answer - I will eat my own hat ;)

That's entropy fucking with us.
How?
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:38 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:17 pm
Well yeah, it could be that the Milky Way is an oddball that has it's own rules.
Not quite. The laws of physics we have measures are local. We infer that they apply to other galaxies from sample size of 1.
That is what I mean we ASSUME symmetry.
With regard to galactic behaviour, according to your argument, it's the other way round. We have a sample size of, potentially, a trillion galaxies and yeah, it only takes one black swan, but the odds of that being us aren't great.
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:38 pm
But until you measure it, it's just extrapolation from an anecdote. And ignoring entropy.
I'm not clear why you think entropy would be relevant in this case.
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:38 pm
... perspective (the observer) matters. Your reference frame matters.
So do jokes.

Logik
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Re: Einstein on the train

Post by Logik » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:31 pm

uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:33 pm
Given what you know about relativity, what does "same time" mean?
Synchronization.

As precisely as our tools (clocks) allow us to commence the experiment at "the same time".
We have another tool now that can help us with that. Entanglement. Does not allow for information transfer, but it does allow for synchronicity.

https://www.pnas.org/content/114/12/E2303
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:33 pm
How?
When I have the experiment design jotted down - I'll tell you ;)

There is a lot of literature review on my desk and I am busy reconciling what I know about empiricism and how it (doesn't?) work in distributed systems with what physicists know about the ontology of information/time.

uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:33 pm
With regard to galactic behaviour, according to your argument, it's the other way round. We have a sample size of, potentially, a trillion galaxies and yeah, it only takes one black swan, but the odds of that being us aren't great.
All the data we have about galaxies is how they behave as a unit. Not as a system. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and yet the whole cannot tell us how the parts behave. So sure - you can infer that Milky way is <insert some holistic behaviour here> but you can't translate that into anything predictive inside the system.
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:33 pm
I'm not clear why you think entropy would be relevant in this case.
Because entropy could be both an epistemic and an ontological phenomenon. A variable you aren't tracking - something you don't understand.
And there is no way to tell which is which when you have only one measurement being done.

So three systems doing same experiment at same time, providing different results means hidden variable.

uwot
Posts: 4071
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:21 am

Re: Einstein on the train

Post by uwot » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:22 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:31 pm
uwot wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:33 pm
Given what you know about relativity, what does "same time" mean?
Synchronization.

As precisely as our tools (clocks) allow us to commence the experiment at "the same time".
Sounds to me like you are assuming either some absolute time, or that rather than measuring some "aspect about the Sun from Earth, Mars and Jupiter. WHILE they are their furthest apart", you mean when they are equidistant. Because even though...
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:31 pm
We have another tool now that can help us with that. Entanglement. Does not allow for information transfer, but it does allow for synchronicity.
...we don't yet have the means to make any such measurement. Short of any such means, the likelihood of all the data being brought back to one place and the clocks being synchronised is, realistically, nil.
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:31 pm
I am busy reconciling what I know about empiricism and how it (doesn't?) work in distributed systems with what physicists know about the ontology of information/time.
Depends on what you mean by 'information' in your field and whether that translates into 'information' as understood by physicists, which is basically any data point; the ontology of which is irrelevant. Any physicist that claims to know about the ontology of time is a halfwit.
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:31 pm
All the data we have about galaxies is how they behave as a unit. Not as a system. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, and yet the whole cannot tell us how the parts behave. So sure - you can infer that Milky way is <insert some holistic behaviour here> but you can't translate that into anything predictive inside the system.
Didn't claim you could, but there is a lot of data on galaxies as units. None of it contradicts what we know about behaviour in the Milky Way.
Logik wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:31 pm
So three systems doing same experiment at same time, providing different results means hidden variable.
Well, first you have to account for the absolute motion through space (good luck with that) and every source of gravitation, including that black hole we're falling into.

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