The Wrong God

So what's really going on?

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roydop
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:37 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by roydop » Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:50 pm

You make inferences about the universe based on the finiteness of my own life?
What else would do you base conclusions on, besides your own experience? Oh right, math and logic.

You are the most deluded person on this forum. You just keep blabbering away about how smart you are but do you ever investigate your own life? The fact that you blabber so much without ever finding conclusion is a glaring sign of your delusion and addiction to thought.

You are an intellegent fool.

Greylorn Ell
Posts: 855
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:13 pm
Location: SE Arizona

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Greylorn Ell » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:22 am

Belinda wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:32 am
Greylorn Ell wrote:
Belinda,
Your's is a curious comment, given that I've used my limited linguistic skills to try to write about a reasonable version of God, but cannot get it done because of the sandbaggers like yourself, whom you seem to cherish.

What do you think? Should I continue, or move elsewhere? GL
Your use of English is okay. I read your OP again and again I felt discouraged by one or two claims that you made. Would you prefer that I dissected these claims?
Belinda,
I'd be honored if you dissected those claims. That's why I put them out there-- as ideas to be discussed.

If you argue against my ideas, I'll naturally offer counterarguments, and a conversation might ensue.

None of the concepts I've proposed in the past or might in the future could have arisen without arguments, conversations, and disagreements with others. I prefer up-front and in-face arguments on forums because they save typing time, but If you request, I can go into friendly, mode as I do with live verbal conversations. My version of "friendly" might differ from yours, as a function of age, experience, and life stuff.

Greylorn

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:06 am

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:50 pm
You make inferences about the universe based on the finiteness of my own life?
What else would do you base conclusions on, besides your own experience? Oh right, math and logic.
I would base my INFERENCE on a statistically significant sample size.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insensiti ... ample_size
Insensitivity to sample size is a cognitive bias that occurs when people judge the probability of obtaining a sample statistic without respect to the sample size
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-value

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:50 pm
You are the most deluded person on this forum.
I have come to a strange conclusion in life. When people hurl insults they project your own doubts onto others.
For example, when I call you a "stupid idiot" I am probably projecting my own uncertainty onto you.

And let me tell you - I can quantify my uncertainty. It's BIIIIIG. The practical difference between you and I is that I know what I don't know.

In so far as delusions go - I place a significant monetary bet on me being one of the few people on this forum who have any clarity of thought.

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:50 pm
You just keep blabbering away about how smart you are but do you ever investigate your own life?
Not once have I made any claims about my own "smartness". I am flattered that you think I am smart when I know I pretty stupid.
I was done playing the "know thyself" game in my 20s. Existential questions don't bother me.

roydop wrote:
Tue Mar 19, 2019 9:50 pm
The fact that you blabber so much without ever finding conclusion is a glaring sign of your delusion and addiction to thought.
You are an intellegent fool.
"addiction to thought" ???????
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

The fact that you seek a conclusion is a glaring sign of your AVERSION to thought.

The conclusion is that there is no conclusion until there is.
The individual conclusion is death.
The collective conclusion is extinction.

Nobody is asking or forcing you to think, but until you reach your own "conclusion", you actually have to use your brain to navigate this world. So you MAY want to develop a system of thought that works for you.

Sorry for the bad news.

roydop
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:37 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by roydop » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:15 am

The conclusion is that there is no conclusion until there is.
The individual conclusion is death.
The collective conclusion is extinction
Nope, death is not conclusion. Samsara just keeps on rolling, as long as karmic tendencies (identification with thoughts/sensations) remain.

And we're approaching a HUGE phase shift into a new cycle.

The fact that you know the limits of knowledge makes me wonder why one would continue on in it? To remain in samsara I suppose. But if one objectively investigates this realm it will be found insubstantial.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:28 am

roydop wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:15 am
Nope, death is not conclusion. Samsara just keeps on rolling, as long as karmic tendencies (identification with thoughts/sensations) remain.

And we're approaching a HUGE phase shift into a new cycle.
All the more reason you need to learn to think then? :)

If you are going to be here for a LOOOOOONG time - you are going to need to use your brain way more than you had hoped for.

roydop wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:15 am
The fact that you know the limits of knowledge makes me wonder why one would continue on in it? To remain in samsara I suppose. But if one objectively investigates this realm it will be found insubstantial.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes! Samsara is the world of the living. I like it here!

I told you. If you want to exit - you know where the door is. One of two things will happen:

Either you are right about samsara and so you will come back anyway - nothing lost in trying.
Or you are wrong about Samsara and you will exit permanently. Is that not what you want?

Do reconsider what happens IF you are wrong though. You are not coming back. Eternal nothingness follows, so think long and hard as to whether this place is as bad as you make it out to be.

This realm is insubstantial. Nihilism is a choice. Choosing not to choose nihilism is also a choice.

Belinda
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Belinda » Wed Mar 20, 2019 11:16 am

Roydop, how might there be Samsara when there are no civilisations to support the world view in which Samsara is embedded?

roydop
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:37 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by roydop » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:41 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:28 am
roydop wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:15 am
Nope, death is not conclusion. Samsara just keeps on rolling, as long as karmic tendencies (identification with thoughts/sensations) remain.

And we're approaching a HUGE phase shift into a new cycle.
All the more reason you need to learn to think then? :)

If you are going to be here for a LOOOOOONG time - you are going to need to use your brain way more than you had hoped for.

roydop wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:15 am
The fact that you know the limits of knowledge makes me wonder why one would continue on in it? To remain in samsara I suppose. But if one objectively investigates this realm it will be found insubstantial.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Yes! Samsara is the world of the living. I like it here!

I told you. If you want to exit - you know where the door is. One of two things will happen:

Either you are right about samsara and so you will come back anyway - nothing lost in trying.
Or you are wrong about Samsara and you will exit permanently. Is that not what you want?

Do reconsider what happens IF you are wrong though. You are not coming back. Eternal nothingness follows, so think long and hard as to whether this place is as bad as you make it out to be.

This realm is insubstantial. Nihilism is a choice. Choosing not to choose nihilism is also a choice.
And herein lies the dilemma.

You, and everyone else, has an INVERTED perspective. This realm is the realm of illusion and therefore it is the realm to which I DO NOT wish to return.

However, there is no such phenomena as "nothingness", as a lack or void. Birth and death are the aspects of life. That which is called "nothingness" is actually pure potential, or life itself.

The phase shift I'm talking about is a move from physical experiences to non-physical experiences. Just look at our species. We are paying more attention to data (screens) and thought than we are to the 3 dimensional realm.

When this physical experience is concluded (extinction) samsara does not end, but it does phase shift. The next realm will be the world in your mind. Scary, in my opinion.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:42 pm

roydop wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:41 pm
You, and everyone else, has an INVERTED perspective. This realm is the realm of illusion and therefore it is the realm to which I DO NOT wish to return.
Then exit!

Maybe it's as easy as that?

Either you will come back, in which case you've learned that what LOOKS like an exit is NOT a exit, but only an illusion.

Or the exit is really an exit - in which case. SUCCESS!

roydop
Posts: 325
Joined: Wed Jan 07, 2015 11:37 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by roydop » Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:59 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:42 pm
roydop wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:41 pm
You, and everyone else, has an INVERTED perspective. This realm is the realm of illusion and therefore it is the realm to which I DO NOT wish to return.
Then exit!

Maybe it's as easy as that?

Either you will come back, in which case you've learned that what LOOKS like an exit is NOT a exit, but only an illusion.

Or the exit is really an exit - in which case. SUCCESS!
Lol, yeah. A handful of humans throughout all of history have been able to exit. This game/puzzle/labyrinth is designed by the Absolute intelligence, and is the most difficult thing to do that is still possible to do.

I'm getting close (relatively speaking) though.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:00 pm

roydop wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 2:59 pm
Lol, yeah. A handful of humans throughout all of history have been able to exit. This game/puzzle/labyrinth is designed by the Absolute intelligence, and is the most difficult thing to do that is still possible to do.

I'm getting close (relatively speakingl though.
So I take it you have actually tried the door labeled EXIT and it leads nowhere?

Dontaskme
Posts: 8096
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:07 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Dontaskme » Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:03 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:28 am

If you want to exit
Just dropping in to remind you ... you cannot exist what you never entered. :wink:
Logik wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:28 am
Eternal nothingness
There is no such thing / place as Eternal nothingness.

.

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Immanuel Can
Posts: 8143
Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:25 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:53 pm
Immanuel Can wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:52 pm
Logik wrote:
Mon Mar 18, 2019 8:37 pm
You make inferences about the universe based on the finiteness of my own life?
No. I prove you can't have an actual infinite.

And you know I'm right; because if you imagined I were not, then you'd have given it a try. But you didn't even take a first whack at it.
Have you no shame in telling such lies!?!
You mean you did try?

But if you did, then your problem was that you necessarily didn't understand the concept "infinite." You thought that it meant, "for a bit." If you had genuinely "tried" to produce infinite causal recursions, even in writing, you would not be writing to me now. You would be infinitely occupied.

QED.

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:42 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:25 pm
You mean you did try?

But if you did, then your problem was that you necessarily didn't understand the concept "infinite." You thought that it meant, "for a bit." If you had genuinely "tried" to produce infinite causal recursions, even in writing, you would not be writing to me now. You would be infinitely occupied.

QED.
Not only TRIED. I genuinely PRODUCED the proof you demanded from me.

The PHYSICAL SYSTEM that does what you want ME to do is over here; https://repl.it/repls/PurpleImpoliteFactors

Like I said - tell us when it finishes running. OK?

If you want me to make it post into this thread (on my behalf) - just say the words.

I have delegated agency to the computer. I trust you don't mind me doing that?

While you tried to put the burden of proof on me. I have shifted the burden of disproof right back at you ;)

Grab some popcorn. That algorithm will run past the End of The Universe.

Q.E.D

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Immanuel Can
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Re: The Wrong God

Post by Immanuel Can » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:01 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 4:42 pm
I have delegated agency to the computer. I trust you don't mind me doing that?
Yes, I do. I want you to satisfy yourself that an actual infinite cannot take place. Watching something else run won't do that for you -- unless you already believe it, prior to the proof coming in.

Otherwise, wait until your program finishes, and then tell me you have the empirical evidence that the infinite regress problem was solved.

Logik
Posts: 4041
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Wrong God

Post by Logik » Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:48 pm

Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:01 pm
Yes, I do. I want you to satisfy yourself that an actual infinite cannot take place. Watching something else run won't do that for you -- unless you already believe it, prior to the proof coming in.
How presumptuous of you. Did you forget that I subscribe to ultrafinitism and that I reject infinities? But the issue (as always) is more complex than you give it credit.

You thought you were trying to teach me something while I was teaching you. Tsk tsk.
Immanuel Can wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 5:01 pm
Otherwise, wait until your program finishes, and then tell me you have the empirical evidence that the infinite regress problem was solved.
The lesson you failed to grasp is that there is a difference between theoretical and practical infinities.

And the gap between the two is called "intractability". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computati ... actability

And so if you have a finite set N, then any value greater than N is, in practice, intractable. but people who haven't heard of that word before still say 'infinite'.

t's an axiom, Mr Can't.
N + V = ∞ for V being any integer > 0.

And so the fact that my algorithm will IN THEORY run for 10^9200 universe lifetimes. It's not infinite, but it's intractable, and so - for all intents and purpose it's infinite TO YOU.

The problem that I am trying to point at, Mr Can't is that you can't actually tell me what the value of N is.
You can't tell me HOW LONG my algorithm will ACTUALLY run for.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem

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