Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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Speakpigeon
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Speakpigeon » Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:14 pm

Age wrote:
Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:13 pm
And that is WHY it is BETTER to always remain OPEN.
I'm sure we would all agree on that here.
EB

surreptitious57
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:03 am

Speakpigeon wrote:
suppose no one has ever reported any black swan only white ones. Suppose nobody has ever seen them but there are actually a few black swans Suppose also that John is a respected zoologist. Now according to your conception of knowledge it is true that John knows all swans are white

Suppose now that John learns that some black swans have been observed. He goes there with other zoologists and see the black swans for him
self. So according to your theory now it is true that John never knew there were only white swans since there were some black swans
So your theory is that at some point it was true that John knew that there were only white swans and also that it is true now that John
never knew
there were only white swans
A default position is provisional not absolute. Therefore John did not know that all swans were white only that there was no evidence
for black ones. When he sees one he then knows that not all swans are white because the existence of a black one has falsified the
default position. The position now is that not all swans are white and it will remain so until there are no black swans

Logik
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:52 am

Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:51 pm
OK, so suppose no one has ever reported any black swan, only white ones.
Suppose nobody has ever seen them, but there are actually a few black swans.
Suppose also that John is a respected zoologist.
Now, according to your conception of knowledge, it is true that John knows all swans are white.

Suppose now that John learns that some black swans have been observed. He goes there with other zoologists and see the black swans for himself.
So, according to your theory, now it is true that John never knew there were only white swans since there were some black swans.
So, your theory is that at some point it was true that John knew that there were only white swans and also that it is true now that John never knew there were only white swans.
EB
What you are attempting to describe is Bayesian inference 101. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference

The concept of prior and posterior probabilities refers to beliefs before and after evidence.

John holds two hypotheses in his mind:

A: All swans are white.
B: Not all swans are white

John's prior is 99.9999% for A, which is the same as 99.9999% AGAINST B.
For every white swan observed the odds keep shifting ever so slightly towards A, but the hypothesis never gets to 100%.

The only way to 100% certainty is falsification!

After John had observed a black swan his posterior was updated to 100% in support of B and 100% AGAINST A.

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Speakpigeon
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Speakpigeon » Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:55 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:03 am
Speakpigeon wrote:
suppose no one has ever reported any black swan only white ones. Suppose nobody has ever seen them but there are actually a few black swans Suppose also that John is a respected zoologist. Now according to your conception of knowledge it is true that John knows all swans are white

Suppose now that John learns that some black swans have been observed. He goes there with other zoologists and see the black swans for him
self. So according to your theory now it is true that John never knew there were only white swans since there were some black swans
So your theory is that at some point it was true that John knew that there were only white swans and also that it is true now that John
never knew
there were only white swans
A default position is provisional not absolute. Therefore John did not know that all swans were white only that there was no evidence
for black ones. When he sees one he then knows that not all swans are white because the existence of a black one has falsified the
default position. The position now is that not all swans are white and it will remain so until there are no black swans
OK, so it seems all we can do is claim to know rather than know.
So, we don't know that we know. We just believe that we know.
We claim to know just in case we might not be proved wrong.
We could say instead that we believe and we would never have to correct ourselves, only to change our belief.
EB

surreptitious57
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:59 pm


Provisional knowledge : induction / abduction / a posteriori

Absolute knowledge : deduction / falsification / a priori

Age
Posts: 2170
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:27 am

Logik wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:52 am
Speakpigeon wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:51 pm
OK, so suppose no one has ever reported any black swan, only white ones.
Suppose nobody has ever seen them, but there are actually a few black swans.
Suppose also that John is a respected zoologist.
Now, according to your conception of knowledge, it is true that John knows all swans are white.

Suppose now that John learns that some black swans have been observed. He goes there with other zoologists and see the black swans for himself.
So, according to your theory, now it is true that John never knew there were only white swans since there were some black swans.
So, your theory is that at some point it was true that John knew that there were only white swans and also that it is true now that John never knew there were only white swans.
EB
What you are attempting to describe is Bayesian inference 101. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_inference

The concept of prior and posterior probabilities refers to beliefs before and after evidence.

John holds two hypotheses in his mind:

A: All swans are white.
B: Not all swans are white

John's prior is 99.9999% for A, which is the same as 99.9999% AGAINST B.
For every white swan observed the odds keep shifting ever so slightly towards A, but the hypothesis never gets to 100%.

The only way to 100% certainty is falsification!

After John had observed a black swan his posterior was updated to 100% in support of B and 100% AGAINST A.
WHY have or hold a VIEW/hypotheses, in the beginning, of 'that' what you have NOT yet even/ever SEEN?

Age
Posts: 2170
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:42 am

Speakpigeon wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:55 pm
surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:03 am
Speakpigeon wrote:
suppose no one has ever reported any black swan only white ones. Suppose nobody has ever seen them but there are actually a few black swans Suppose also that John is a respected zoologist. Now according to your conception of knowledge it is true that John knows all swans are white

Suppose now that John learns that some black swans have been observed. He goes there with other zoologists and see the black swans for him
self. So according to your theory now it is true that John never knew there were only white swans since there were some black swans
So your theory is that at some point it was true that John knew that there were only white swans and also that it is true now that John
never knew
there were only white swans
A default position is provisional not absolute. Therefore John did not know that all swans were white only that there was no evidence
for black ones. When he sees one he then knows that not all swans are white because the existence of a black one has falsified the
default position. The position now is that not all swans are white and it will remain so until there are no black swans
OK, so it seems all we can do is claim to know rather than know.
But 'we' can do differently.

'We' can express 'THAT' what we THINK, and have VIEWED, which is NOT to claim any thing that we do not yet KNOW, but rather to just say and express that this is what I think and have viewed.
Speakpigeon wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:55 pm
So, we don't know that we know. We just believe that we know.
'You' and "others" may just believe things, like that, but I do NOT. I neither disbelieve any thing also.

I have a view of things, which is based on what I have SEEN or what I now SEE, which could be WRONG or PARTLY WRONG.

Agreement will INFORM me of how RIGHT or WRONG my views IS.
Speakpigeon wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:55 pm
We claim to know just in case we might not be proved wrong.
'You' and "others" might do that, but I do NOT and certainly would NEVER do such a thing.

The absurdity of doing such a thing speaks for itself.
Speakpigeon wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 12:55 pm
We could say instead that we believe and we would never have to correct ourselves, only to change our belief.
EB
'You' and "others" could do that, but what is caused by the distorting capabilities from thee Truth of doing such a thing can be observed and SEEN by what "world" human beings are living in now, when this is written. 'BELIEFS', themselves, are the very cause of the WRONG in the world right now, and in the past, from when this is written.

If a BELIEF needs to be changed, then WHY have that BELIEF and/or BELIEVE in some thing in the first place?

Why NOT just stay OPEN and just remain LOOKING AT things instead?

If, and when, things are LOOKED AT from the Truly OPEN perspective, then the actual and real Truth of things can be SEEN, and almost instantly KNOWN as well.

Age
Posts: 2170
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Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:48 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:59 pm

Provisional knowledge : induction / abduction / a
THINKING
surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:59 pm
Absolute knowledge : deduction / falsification / a priori
KNOWING

Absolute True knowledge :

Found in AGREEMENT, and KNOWN, for sure.

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik » Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:46 am

Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:27 am
WHY have or hold a VIEW/hypotheses, in the beginning, of 'that' what you have NOT yet even/ever SEEN?
Because you recognize the incompleteness of your own knowledge?
Because you recognize that the hypothesis "I am making an error" must ALWAYS be testes along side everything else?

Age
Posts: 2170
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:16 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 6:46 am
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:27 am
WHY have or hold a VIEW/hypotheses, in the beginning, of 'that' what you have NOT yet even/ever SEEN?
Because you recognize the incompleteness of your own knowledge?
Because you recognize that the hypothesis "I am making an error" must ALWAYS be testes along side everything else?
Back to my original and continually asked question: Why NOT just LOOK AT what IS instead?

How could one go wrong by LOOKING AT what IS actually True and Right,and just SEE that, instead of having conceptions of, and making models up of, what COULD BE true and right?

There is only incompleteness of "your own" knowledge because you are making ASSUMPTIONS of things that may or may NOT be true, right, and correct, and because you are BELIEVING in things, which may or may NOT be true, right, and correct, also.

Again, WHY make any thing that NEEDS to be tested, especially when the actual and Real Truth of things is literally STARING you in the face?

Thee Truth is HERE for ALL to SEE, so Why NOT just LOOK AT It?

If 'you', human beings, have NOT yet SEEN the Truth, and can NOT yet see It, then I have on enough occasions now explained WHY NOT.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik » Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:25 am

Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:16 am
Back to my original and continually asked question: Why NOT just LOOK AT what IS instead?
Because I have limited time to look EVERYWHERE?

I don't think unicorns exist, but I could be wrong. Can YOU tell me WHERE I can go look to see a unicorn, please?

Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:16 am
How could one go wrong by LOOKING AT what IS actually True and Right,and just SEE that, instead of having conceptions of, and making models up of, what COULD BE true and right?
Because you didn't look everywhere.

Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:16 am
There is only incompleteness of "your own" knowledge because you are making ASSUMPTIONS of things that may or may NOT be true, right, and correct, and because you are BELIEVING in things, which may or may NOT be true, right, and correct, also.

Again, WHY make any thing that NEEDS to be tested, especially when the actual and Real Truth of things is literally STARING you in the face?

Thee Truth is HERE for ALL to SEE, so Why NOT just LOOK AT It?

If 'you', human beings, have NOT yet SEEN the Truth, and can NOT yet see It, then I have on enough occasions now explained WHY NOT.
My bullshit detector is firing!!!!

Age
Posts: 2170
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:25 am
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:16 am
Back to my original and continually asked question: Why NOT just LOOK AT what IS instead?
Because I have limited time to look EVERYWHERE?
But you have enough time to guess, make ASSUMPTIONS, conceptualize, make up models, et cetera, and BELIEVE things instead, right?

For your information it takes far less time to LOOK AT and SEE the Truth of things, then it does to do what 'you' do.
Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:25 am
I don't think unicorns exist, but I could be wrong. Can YOU tell me WHERE I can go look to see a unicorn, please?
Have you YET SEEN one? If not, then answer this question Honestly and Openly what IS thee actual and Real Truth in regards to unicorns?

If you answered that Openly and Honestly, then you now have thee actual and Real Truth of things. It really is that QUICK, SIMPLE, and EASY.

Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:25 am
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:16 am
How could one go wrong by LOOKING AT what IS actually True and Right,and just SEE that, instead of having conceptions of, and making models up of, what COULD BE true and right?
Because you didn't look everywhere.
But if you are LOOKING AT what IS, then you do NOT have to LOOK "everywhere". (But just to add some confusion to this, and unfortunately sound like "dontaskme", you are actually LOOKING 'everywhere').

Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:25 am
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:16 am
There is only incompleteness of "your own" knowledge because you are making ASSUMPTIONS of things that may or may NOT be true, right, and correct, and because you are BELIEVING in things, which may or may NOT be true, right, and correct, also.

Again, WHY make any thing that NEEDS to be tested, especially when the actual and Real Truth of things is literally STARING you in the face?

Thee Truth is HERE for ALL to SEE, so Why NOT just LOOK AT It?

If 'you', human beings, have NOT yet SEEN the Truth, and can NOT yet see It, then I have on enough occasions now explained WHY NOT.
My bullshit detector is firing!!!!
So what?

Your curiosity is all but DEAD.

So, you will NEVER be able to KNOW if YOUR "bullshit detector" is actually working or NOT.

You could BELIEVE it is working but then you are STUCK where you are right now. Only BELIEVING in things that may or may not be true, right, and/or correct. Without EVER actually KNOWING thee actual and Real Truth of things.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik » Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am

Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am
But you have enough time to guess, make ASSUMPTIONS, conceptualize, make up models, et cetera, and BELIEVE things instead, right?
No, we don't. We have finite time in which to make decisions and take action.
Pragmatic necessity.
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am
For your information it takes far less time to LOOK AT and SEE the Truth of things, then it does to do what 'you' do.
No, it doesn't. We've been looking for a cure for cancer for a long time. We haven't found it yet.

Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am
Have you YET SEEN one? If not, then answer this question Honestly and Openly what IS thee actual and Real Truth in regards to unicorns?
That we do not know whether they exist or not. Maybe they do - maybe they don't.
Maybe they are in a galaxy on planet where we haven't looked yet.
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am
If you answered that Openly and Honestly, then you now have thee actual and Real Truth of things. It really is that QUICK, SIMPLE, and EASY.
The same goes with curing cancer.

Maybe we can. Maybe we can't. What's the way to figure out the right answer?
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am
But if you are LOOKING AT what IS, then you do NOT have to LOOK "everywhere".
OK then show us. Since you know how to look and where to look then surely you must have looked there.

Is cancer curable or not?

I think there is such thing as too open-minded, too simple and too easy. When your brain leaks out and you start munching crayons.

But if you really care about having your BELIEFS validated so badly, try a psychologist. They are paid to listen to your bullshit.

Age
Posts: 2170
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Age » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:03 am

Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am
But you have enough time to guess, make ASSUMPTIONS, conceptualize, make up models, et cetera, and BELIEVE things instead, right?
No, we don't. We have finite time in which to make decisions and take action.
Pragmatic necessity.
I asked YOU the question. YOU are incapable of answering questions for ALL of US.

And, "make decisions" and "take action" in regards to WHAT EXACTLY?

WE were talking about some thing else in previous post. You appear to have NOT like that discussion and are now TRYING TO divert away from that and LOOK AT some completely OFF TOPIC subject. (But this is some thing you do do quite regularly).
Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am
For your information it takes far less time to LOOK AT and SEE the Truth of things, then it does to do what 'you' do.
No, it doesn't.
YOU answer as if you KNOW what you are talking about.
Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am
We've been looking for a cure for cancer for a long time. We haven't found it yet.
So what? WHAT has a cure for cancer got to do with thee Truth of things?

Again, you are TRYING TO deflect away from what WAS being discussed, and AGAIN, TRYING TO speak for US.

YOU are NOT capable of speaking for ME, so leave WE out of this.

Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am
Have you YET SEEN one? If not, then answer this question Honestly and Openly what IS thee actual and Real Truth in regards to unicorns?
That we do not know whether they exist or not. Maybe they do - maybe they don't.
Did you NOTICE how SIMPLE that was?
Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am
Maybe they are in a galaxy on planet where we haven't looked yet.
Who cares?

Also, did you NOTICE how it was quicker to SEE the Truth of things, then it was to guess, conceptualize, make up things, et cetera.
Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am
If you answered that Openly and Honestly, then you now have thee actual and Real Truth of things. It really is that QUICK, SIMPLE, and EASY.
The same goes with curing cancer.

Maybe we can. Maybe we can't. What's the way to figure out the right answer?
WE WERE talking about LOOKING AT and SEEING thee Truth of things. We WERE NOT talking about the "right" answer, to such questions. Did you forget?
Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:37 am
But if you are LOOKING AT what IS, then you do NOT have to LOOK "everywhere".
OK then show us. Since you know how to look and where to look then surely you must have looked there.
WHY would you now, once again, go and ASSUME some thing?
Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am
Is cancer curable or not?
I do NOT know.

Did YOU recognize and SEE what IS the actual and Real Truth now?
Logik wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:43 am
I think there is such thing as too open-minded, too simple and too easy. When your brain leaks out and you start munching crayons.
You can THINK whatever you LIKE. The Truth speaks for Itself. The Truth, however, will NEVER rely only on what 'you' THINK.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Do you think you know that the Moon exists?

Post by Logik » Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:14 am

Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:03 am
I asked YOU the question. YOU are incapable of answering questions for ALL of US.
That is a lie. I am perfectly capable answering the question for ALL OF US.
Our life-span is a well documented phenomenon. 75 years on average, with rare exceptions that go up to 130.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you will live to 130 years.
That's how much time you have to determine IF unicorns exist.
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:03 am
And, "make decisions" and "take action" in regards to WHAT EXACTLY?
To determine IF unicorns exist.

Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:03 am
WE were talking about some thing else in previous post. You appear to have NOT like that discussion and are now TRYING TO divert away from that and LOOK AT some completely OFF TOPIC subject. (But this is some thing you do do quite regularly).
I am on-topic. What you are doing in the paragraph above IS a diversion.

Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:03 am
YOU answer as if you KNOW what you are talking about.
Correct. I know your life-span is finite.
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:03 am
So what? WHAT has a cure for cancer got to do with thee Truth of things?
Because "We can cure cancer" is either or a True of a False statement.
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:03 am
Again, you are TRYING TO deflect away from what WAS being discussed, and AGAIN, TRYING TO speak for US.
I am not TRYING to speak for you. I am SPEAKING for you. Because you are unable to.
You rejected your own humanity, while I recognized you as human and upheld it despite your crayon-munching expedition.
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:03 am
WE WERE talking about LOOKING AT and SEEING thee Truth of things. We WERE NOT talking about the "right" answer, to such questions. Did you forget?
"WE" are YOU speaking on my behalf now? ;)

You don't have to do that. Unlike you - I am capable of speaking for myself.
Age wrote:
Sat Mar 09, 2019 9:03 am
You can THINK whatever you LIKE. The Truth speaks for Itself. The Truth, however, will NEVER rely only on what 'you' THINK.
Yet here you are - speaking on behalf of Truth.

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