And you are free not to rely on it.
Me? I hate mundane and repetitive tasks - I get bored.
So if I can automate it - I will. I am lazy like that.
Plus computers don't whine like humans when they work 24/7/365.
And you are free not to rely on it.
Automating everything is a mundane task of repeating the same thing. The problem is that you are lazy and cannot find meaning in the simple things.
It's not. Every problem is slightly different. If it were repetitive - a computer could do it
I can find meaning in simple things.
So it is all about money to you?
I don't know about you, but economic freedom is a nice place to be.
If straw-manning me at every step gives you meaning then whatever.
Really? You don't want to experience less death around you? You don't want to experience less suffering?
We can do kidney transplants for humans. Why can't we do them for dogs? Now imagine a world where kidney failure was as easy to treat as a headache.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:49 pm Yesterday by dog was dying from kidney failure. He died like we all will. You know how I took that "darkness" and "converted" it to light? I showed compassion to my little buddy. I held him in my arms. We took a nap. And while he was dying I spent time with him and comforted him where I could. Why? Because he is a small extension of me...by "quality" alone. In show love to him, I showed love to myself. Sad? Yes. Hurt? Yes. But pleasure?...Yes by embracing all for what it is.
Is that so? Have you looked at the field of bionics recently?
You are fucked up. You recognise pain and suffering. You experience it - fine. We all do.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:49 pm The solution to the problem of life and death lies within the self...one must simply embrace what is in front of them regardless of the pain or pleasure which comes from it.
You see what you represent is a belief in avoiding all forms of death and displeasure through a hedonism which robs the human condition of any sense of "meaning" by providing a continual distraction.
Logik wrote: ↑Thu Feb 21, 2019 12:27 amI don't know about you, but economic freedom is a nice place to be.
Between poverty and this - I will choose this every time.
I had economic freedom, it never gave me the balance all men need. Is it a part of life? Yes. Is it the whole of life? Definitely not. Rich people kill themselves all the time.
If straw-manning me at every step gives you meaning then whatever.
I'll be your windmill, Don Quixote!
Actually under-mining the human condition by quantifying is the ultimate strawman.
Really? You don't want to experience less death around you? You don't want to experience less suffering?
You don't want to reduce poverty?
And I am the asshole?
I want all these things...and I see the world that men like you create and you multiply the problems and make them worse. Even then the human condition is not bound to this world alone, so paradise is a false way of viewing things. The only question is how one achieves balance.
We can do kidney transplants for humans. Why can't we do them for dogs? Now imagine a world where kidney failure was as easy to treat as a headache.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:49 pm Yesterday by dog was dying from kidney failure. He died like we all will. You know how I took that "darkness" and "converted" it to light? I showed compassion to my little buddy. I held him in my arms. We took a nap. And while he was dying I spent time with him and comforted him where I could. Why? Because he is a small extension of me...by "quality" alone. In show love to him, I showed love to myself. Sad? Yes. Hurt? Yes. But pleasure?...Yes by embracing all for what it is.
Then it will just be another disease that cannot be treated. If not kidney disease then another. The only rational thing to due, when all option run out (and they do), is to practice compassion. Absence of compassion is what causes the majority of the world's problems to begin with.
If we COULD get to such world, would you want to go there or would you rather let your dog die?
I want less pain and suffering - and you call ME the asshole...
I am not calling you an asshole...I am calling your world-view the source of the complications.
How do you think we are ever going to get to such a world without somebody spending the time working on those problems?
Who is going to pay for those people's time? Nobody works for free!
Nobody will be working period when AI takes over. As a matter of fact AI will just quantify us into numbers until it implodes on itself.
Is that so? Have you looked at the field of bionics recently?
All of the below problems are premised on whether or not people can afford them. Those who society deems fit. Second many of these health issues are caused my modern means of living and well as modern industrial accidents/warfare. These issues always existed, the manner we treat them only changes.
I dealt with the amish plenty of times, they build great stuff but admit to more injuries with power tools than basic hand tools (I see it all the time on construction sites).
Deaf people can hear with cochlear implants ( https://www.cochlear.com/au/home/unders ... ar-implant )
Blind people can see ( https://www.israel21c.org/digital-glass ... -impaired/ )
Amputees can control digital limbs ( https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-mar ... ense-again )
Artificial organs promise a future where we don't need organ donors ( http://www.mirm.pitt.edu/our-research/f ... al-organs/ )
Inside each of those digital devices you will find a computer.
Your cynicism knows no bounds!
You eradicating the human condition knows no bounds, there will be noone left to even be cynical if people just live in virtual reality all day.
You are fucked up. You recognise pain and suffering. You experience it - fine. We all do.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:49 pm The solution to the problem of life and death lies within the self...one must simply embrace what is in front of them regardless of the pain or pleasure which comes from it.
You see what you represent is a belief in avoiding all forms of death and displeasure through a hedonism which robs the human condition of any sense of "meaning" by providing a continual distraction.
But you wish it upon everybody! That makes you an enormous asshole.
No. What I am saying is that suffering is unavoidable and the only way to deal with it is to negate the sources of the suffering as much as one can. The modern world multiplies the very same problems it seeks to cure. Part of this is by avoiding the issue of suffering itself: Man's state of being. If one's values are wrong, as well as there perspectives, it does not matter what one invents...man will just ruin it.
You think suffering is walking 5 extra miles a day.
Seeing a kid put on psychiatric drugs is much worse and way more insulting to the human condition.
What you represent is a killing of the human spirit in the face of endless distractions and gadgets to give solution to the problems civilization created. It is just a pointless cycle.
So they meet the criteria via your maths formula, but they are arbitrarily excluded because you don't want them in your schema.prof wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:14 amFlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:39 amOther examples of I-value being: hate, scorn, envy, 'chewing gum and kicking ass', exclusion, obfuscation, dismissal, fear, disdain and derision?prof wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:51 pm Examples of I-value are: life, love, liberty ... empathy, and compassion.
I-value is also very important when it comes to defining "Ethics." Ethics is a perspective. It arises when an individual is II-valued or a group of individuals are I-valued.
That is the definition of Ethics in the structural analysis of the moral/ethical field, as explained clearly in the Unified Theory of Ethics.
Your views are welcomed.......
The answer to your question is, No. Those are not examples of I-value, although some of them, such as scorn, have an I-value component in their analysis, in the calculus. What is quoted in the paragraph immediately-above this one shows a complete misunderstanding.
Yes, I-valuation is the realm of emotion, emphasis, personalization, but disdain and derision are unethical and immoral; and fear and obfuscation are the specialty of trolls, and those, along with disdain and derision, are the opposite of being ethical.
As most of you know, Ethics pertains to kindness and consideration, to making things better, to helpfulness, assuming responsibility, and to cooperation.
There is no point in extending this thread further. I shall be leaving here now. The spirit of cooperation I was hopeful about has completely evaporated, if it ever existed.
What a shame
Values are not enough established in society we need to consider that values are necessary, and we must add them day to day in our lives, for example what about the idea of justice (but not only to analyse in a moral way which determine our idea of justice of each situation of life), but also we are not assessing in a educational way. Involving what is around justice, for example we decide by ourselves what to choice when you collect the onions under the ground, but you can not choice them when you go to a shop, because the grocer decides to sell you the ones he decides, so you had the opportunity to choice them, but ethics says us that he should give the right ones, but he needs to sell them to survive, so finally the idea of justice is showed as a subjective value and moral way, the ethic will say that the grocer should sell the best and healthy products. Justice is missing not for bad education but also for not having the right habit to use it, and if we enhanced the justice as major value, we will learn from it as something that is our priority to support others.Eodnhoj7 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:13 pmHierarchial values created a dichotomy where the raising of one thing results in the lower of another. The creation of Good results in Evil, and vice versa and as such set morality as grounded in an inherent relativism that reflects within the divergence of values by the continual act of "comparison". Morality grounded in a progression necessitates a problem in not just observing "equality" but the very fact equality itself necessates a form of seperation in and of itself as "equality" already necessitates a form of seperation resulting in the inherent absence of "unity" necessary for any structure to occur.prof wrote: ↑Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:24 am In a spirit of cooperation with Flash Dangerpants, I am taking a suggestion he offered to initiate a new thread.
This thread also is in keeping with Kant's book, Logik, written earlier, but translated into English in 1800, a book in which he introduces three basic kinds of concepts: the construct, the abstraction (or classification or categorization), and the unicept (or singularity.)
He also explains three kinds of method: the Synthetic - the method of science, where one begins with primary properties and then adds secondary refinements later;
the Analytic method, which is the procedure in philosophy [of clarifying and analyzing vague concepts in an effort to make them more clear and sharp. It proceeds by comparing and contrasting, by categorizing, rarely defining terms, 'having words chasing words,,' etc.;
and then Kant tells us about (what today we would speak of as) the axiomatic method where the "synthetic a priori" is central. That latter - the axiom - takes a fertile assumption, spins out its implications employing both deduction and induction.
=== Let's get started.
HOW & WHY THE HIERARCHY- OF-VALUE FORMULA IS SOUND
Robert S. Hartman (1910 – 1973) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Hartman created the ‘Axiom of Value.’ With the Axiom of Value – which is the formal definition of the term “value” (which we will soon elucidate) - and with standard set theory, we will below demonstrate that once the axiom is applied to the concept value itself, it comes up with three basic dimensions: S, E, and I. This, as you will note, is a logical procedure.
{It yields potentially hundreds of definitions of other terms that are related to one another, bother both as to degree of “betterness”, and as to how they correlate with other terms having the same dimension of value.} Here is a link to a chart containing some of these new terms; there will, of course, be some primitive terms that are undefined, as in any system. See the table in End Note 4 (see pp. 64-66) here: http://wadeharvey.myqol.com/wadeharvey/ ... ETHICS.pdf
, we will explain later that when the axiom is applied to the concept “value” we derive three dimensions of value, as follows:
[There are three kinds of number which mathematicians acknowledge: finite; denumerable; and nondenumerable. Or, to say it another way, finite, countable, and uncountable.
[To illustrate, think of “7” (or the letter n in algebra which refers to) numbers which are finite. Then think of the integers: these numbers are countable but nonfinite since they go on indefinitely. And then think of the number of points in a continuous line segment: which is an uncountable number.]
So a value which - by definition - has only a finite amount of the properties required to fulfill its description (i.e., its concept’s intension) will be named S-value – where S stands for Systemic. (For all practical purposes, the intensions of these concepts are finite but elastic.)
A value which is defined as having only a denumerable (a countable) amount of properties will be spoken of as an E-value, where the E stands for Extrinsic.
And a value which – by definition - has a nondenumerable (an uncountable) amount of the property-names (attributes) which are needed to describe something (or someone) having uncountably-many properties {such as your mother, your wife, your dear friend, your priceless treasure, a museum-quality artifact, etc.) ...that value dimension we shall dub I-value, wherein I stands for Intrinsic.
...continued in next post.....
The nature of hierarchy is not only relativistic, but necessitates all value systems as existing through a process of directed movement and the foundations of being are "again" reduced to spatial axioms and we are left with a common grounding in traditional values we inevitably progressed away from.
Hierarchial values should be replaced with cyclical ones reflective of the golden rule, where self and self/self and group/group and group values exist as an intertwine system of "reflection" where morality fundamentally is an act of creating the self/other's/self through the manifestation of certain limits within the human condition as the human condition. In simpler terms morality is a process of turning chaos into order by a process of giving definition to irrational elements.
Practically this can be observed in the practice of moderation as a universal habit by observing the center between two extremes as the embracement of both; thus necessitating morality as conducive to a process of "joining" or a rationalized version of agape, philios and eros as center points to the other.
Vice must be accepted and redirected, as vice is an inherent disintegration of the human condition and as such is subject to an inherent law of entropy. The golden rule necessitates a process of inversion where nothingness is fundamentally eliminated under a process of self-reflection in which common grounds are observed in seemingly seperate aspects of the self and self/ self and group/ group and group. To eliminate vice effectively causes it to expand.
In these respects, at the practical level, morality takes on the form of a dialogue necessitating all practical endeavors as reflecting on "truth".
Furthermore morality takes on a foundation in equilibrium; and the elimination of evil can only occur through the creation of good. The question of what is "good" however always necessitates a form of "unity" as order exists in accords with an inherent nature of unity. What is "evil" effectively is an act of seperation in a manner where unity is not maintained.
Creating technology to solve practical problems at the expense of the alienation of quality causes an absence of unity.
Avoiding technology dually results in the same problem.
Hence a middle path with equilibrium determined intuitively determined by a sense of quality and unity it brings, quantititively where resource formation and use are in equilibrium. Etc.
The moral grounding of the Golden Rule necessitates equilibrium by not just observing a middle path of temperance at the individual and group level, but also observing a change in a values system at the rational (not just intuitive) level where all phenomenon, and hence the human condition, are center points for further phenomenon; as such they are meaningful in and of themselves.
The question of a value system is grounded in the question of measurement.
This sets a strong problem for using "kant" as a foundation, as this nature of "space" as being primarily subjective results in a subject value system that effectually causes an inherent absence of objectivity in values causing the same moral dilemma he seeks to avoid.
Kant is dead, he is a ghost story for a time where philosophy is stuck in a blinding night. Western nihilism is grounded in the inherent entropy of reason previous philosopher's failed to take into account when setting a system of metaphysics as a cornerstone of the cultures they defined. If entropy is viewed as a law, and not as a problem, the nature of the problem will not be projected as a sort of "existential paranoia" that is the grounding for the lack of equilibrium in the values systems we currently "observe".
So you as usual, you ran into questions you couldn't answer. Then you threw a little strop. And now you are just changing the subject completely to pretend nothing happened.
The topic is not how lovely you think the HOV is, it is how you propose to justify it properly.prof wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:03 pm The topic is setting priorities. The Hierarchy of Value formula (the HOV) aids us in doing that. For example:
Intrinsic Value: To be.
Extrinsic Value: To do.
Systemic Value: To have [money, stocks, bonds, credits, interest, or any constituent of a financial system.]
Thus it follows that in order to have, an individual first shall be, then do. "To be" is to be real, not a phony like trolls are.
...There was no 'change of subject.'
All constructive criticism is welcome.
Comments? Questions? Criticism? Contributions?
Preferences, of course, are values, one category of values. Robert Hartman's friend, Nick Rescher, wrote a book offering a logic of preferences. It is a tiny book and is one that logicians can enjoy. "Preference" is a concept that Economists, Psychologists, and Ethicists find useful.
Thank you, Flash for reminding readers of what they can find in my writings. You are turning out to be a good student. You have skill at doing research.FlashDangerpants wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2019 2:32 pm Your great discovery a while ago was time-units of attention - this was supposed to give the mathematical basis for calculating an I-value