Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pm
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:47 pm
Speakpigeon wrote: ↑Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:01 pm
I don't think I could possibly know that the Moon exists at all since all I know to exist are subjective impressions, and none of them is as such what I call the Moon.
Do you think you know that the Moon exists?
EB
The moon is a KNOWN conceptual perception (an appearance) within the perceiver.
( ''within'' ) being the important factor here. In that an appearance is not actually external to you, everything that appears to be outside of you is actually appearing within you, inseparable from you. ''YOU'' being the first person subjective consciousness.
To 'you', how many 'you's' are there?
ONE
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:47 pmWithout a conscious observer no thing can possibly KNOWS it exists. Therefore, consciousness is the only knowing there is. And there is nothing outside of that KNOWING.
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmWhy do 'you' propose such a thing?
If, as you propose, consciousness is the only knowing, then why do 'you' say that there can NOT be thing outside of consciousness?
Because consciousness is all there is, it's without beginning or end, it's infinity now.
There is nothing outside of infinity. And nothing inside it either, for what is inside/outside except as a known concept arising here now in consciousness that has no known begining nor end...which is another term for everything and nothing existing simultaneously here now infinitely for eternity.
Concepts are relative to itself only which is 'not a thing' formless consciousness appearing as a formed thing or put another way, form is relative to itself only aka formless source, the shapeless formless being the ultimate shapeshifter that can take on many forms while it itself is formless ..forms being illusions of the formless.
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmIf, for example, there is consciousness/knowing of a "moon", then surely that would suggest that there is A thing outside of the consciousness/knowing, right?
See above answer.
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmIf a conscious observer is seeing things, then that suggests that there ARE things, to see and observe, correct?
A conscious observer is not the seer, it is the seeing that cannot be seen, it's a verb. What is seen is what is seeing, there is no separation.
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:47 pmThere is no moon without a perceiver present to perceive it...and the moon will only be a KNOWN conceptual appearance within the perceiver that must be first, so the moon does not and cannot exist outside or external to the perceiver...
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmWhy are you saying and/or suggesting that there is absolutely NOTHING without a perceiver? What evidence do you have for this?
Direct experience is the only evidence and it's not even evidence, it doesn't need evidence ..IT IS... NO such need for evidence for that would require a prover, but it's totally self evident via direct experience, no need for a prover, it doesn't require or need a middle man. Everything perceived can only be known if there is a preceiver present aware of itself as known. I am that instantaneous knowing when that knowing arises here.
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmHow many perceiver's are there existing?
ONE
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmWho/what is A 'perceiver'?
It's not a who or a what... It just IS...
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmWhere does a perceiver exist?
Everyhwere and Nowhere simultaneously.
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmHow long have perceiver/s been existing for?
Time is a known conceptual idea, a thought appearance within timeless infinity..aka consciousness perceiving and knowing itself.
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmWhere do perceiver/s come from if there is absolutely NOTHING without a perceiver first?
Perceiver and Percieved are one in the same instant which is NOW...NOW is the only place there is. This is it, source right here now manifesting all at once.
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:47 pmthe moon is inside the perceiver, so both the moon and that which is perceiving the moon do not and cannot possibly exist separately in the same sense that wetness does not exist separate from water.
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmSo, A perceiver encompasses absolutely EVERY thing, and ALWAYS HAS, that is if THINGS have always existed also, correct? If, however, THINGS have not always existed and there still needed to be a perceiver FIRST, then in what shape and/or form was the perciever existing in, prior to 'things', which could be observed, coming into existence? But, if things ONLY exist because of A perceiver, then that would mean that while A perceiver is existing, then so are ALL the "other" things, which you say are inseparable from the perceiver.
The perceiver doesn't have a form, it's formless shapeless conciousness taking the shape of shape and form according to what concept /perception is placed upon itself.
Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:47 pmAny relationship or division between observer and observed is purely conceptual, so all concepts are illusory fictional characters within the infinite observer, therefore a character does not and cannot exist in and of itself separate from the perceiver/ KNOWER..which is CONSCIOUSNESS.
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmBack to; How many actual perceiver's/KNOWER's are there, to 'you'?
ONE
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:17 pmIf you want to come across as KNOWING what you are talking about and that you are actually true, right, and correct, then you have to be able to clear up any and all seemingly perceived contradictions and/or absurdities. If not for "others" but for YOU.
Any contradiction is a mental illusory projection of the mind, mind being an aspect of consciousness, projection is the content of consciousness itself knowing itself, the mind being the sense of separation, the dual aspect of nondual consciousness. Your own mind is getting in the way causing the consciousness that you already are to appear twice as in ''I know I am consciousness'' but that knowing I am is a conceptual thought appearing to itself only the only knowing there is... which is consciousness. Nondual Consciousness and the contents of Consciousness (the duality of split mind the unknown knower)... are the same ONE consciousness interacting with itself appearing to itself appearing as two, but not two.
And yes, the concept of ONE thing existing is absurd, and yet here it is. Ta Da!
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