What is a lie?

What did you say? And what did you mean by it?

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bahman
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Re: What is a lie?

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:43 pm

A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
There seems to be two factors which come into play:
1. Whether the speaker believes what they are saying or not
2. Whether what they say is factually accurate.

Clearly if a person does not believe what they say and it is factually inaccurate then it is a lie.

But what if they believe it to be accurate but it is not.. is that a lie?

And what if they do not believe what they say but it is in fact factually accurate?

And what about future events.. If someone says they will do something but then doesn't do it.. did they tell a lie?

What do you think?
Pain versus pleasure. White versus black. Answer versus question. Truth versus lie. Good versus evil. It is dual. The whole is balanced.

Age
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Re: What is a lie?

Post by Age » Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:19 am

creativesoul wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:20 am
The American legal system doesn't do anyone any favors either...

"I do solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth."

That conflates truth and belief... unfortunately. Taken literally, if one's belief is false, one can speak sincerely by virtue of believing that everything they've said is true(which is all any reasonable judge or jury can expect from witness testimony) and still fail to do what they swore to do.
Could this be very easily and simply corrected by just asking and confirming, Do you 'know' this to be the truth or is this just what you 'believe' to be the truth?

If it is 'knowing', then there would be some actual evidence and/or proof to back up and support this that they could show. Whereas,
If it is just 'believing', then that can be said and stated without any actual evidence nor proof being able to be shown.

By definition if one 'believes' some thing to be true, and although they wholeheartedly might believe it to be true, they do not necessarily have nor need proof they just need to believe it to be true, for it to be true, from their perspective. Whereas, to 'know' some thing to be true, by definition, there needs to be some actual evidence and/or proof of this.

gaffo
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Re: What is a lie?

Post by gaffo » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:40 am

A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am



But what if they believe it to be accurate but it is not.. is that a lie?
not a lie, they are just wrong.
A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
And what if they do not believe what they say but it is in fact factually accurate?
then they are lying per their eronius understanding, though speaking the truth.

so they are lying techically (per their understanding of what is true - which is wrong WRT the rest of us)

A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
And what about future events.. If someone says they will do something but then doesn't do it.. did they tell a lie?

What do you think?
if they said they would do something and don't do it - they ended up lying.

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A_Seagull
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Re: What is a lie?

Post by A_Seagull » Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:39 am

gaffo wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:40 am
A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am



But what if they believe it to be accurate but it is not.. is that a lie?
not a lie, they are just wrong.
A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
And what if they do not believe what they say but it is in fact factually accurate?
then they are lying per their eronius understanding, though speaking the truth.

so they are lying techically (per their understanding of what is true - which is wrong WRT the rest of us)

A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
And what about future events.. If someone says they will do something but then doesn't do it.. did they tell a lie?

What do you think?
if they said they would do something and don't do it - they ended up lying.
And what if the person claims that something is true while knowing that it only has a possibility of being true, and that it can't in fact be shown to be either true or false?

(I think a lot of philosophy falls in this category.)

duszek
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Re: What is a lie?

Post by duszek » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:13 pm

As far as promising goes we can only say if we have an honest and sincere intention of doing something.

If I say: I will buy a bag of apples for you on my way home, and know that I cannot possibly do it or because I don´t want to do it, then this is a lie.

If I go to the shop and slip on a banana skin and brake my leg and end up in a hospital then I am excused. Fate interfered, my intention was pure and still is.

duszek
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Location: Thin Air

Re: What is a lie?

Post by duszek » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:15 pm

Sometimes you can try to tell a lie and tell the truth by mistake ... :lol:

Scott Mayers
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Re: What is a lie?

Post by Scott Mayers » Mon Feb 18, 2019 9:17 pm

A "lie" is any intentionally deceiving claim or response meant to entice action by others. Intention and deception is required. The truth though about one's intent is only known by the one expressing the lie for certain. As to outsiders judgement about who lies, this is only either circumstantially assigned to those that appear to be claiming something with deception or delusion. So it is still a relative factor.

Some believe intrinsically that lying is essential to derive action, especially if there is no apparent or subjectively [conceivable] means to get another to act without doing so. This may be due to a belief (and possibly real factor) about the subject one believes they require lying about is hopeless or relatively undecidable by nature.

On the poster above mentioning the swearing in oaths, like in courts, this is a public means to assert that they are fully aware of the consequences of potential deception, to entice those who fear unearthly consequences, and to determine, ...I believe personally, ....to what KIND of 'believer/non-believer' you are and/or to whether you conform to the system of law psychologically. I'm hesitant to these oaths because it is does tell us something about the system's means to potentially discriminate against non-believers. The fear is that if one lacks a belief in religion as a minimal, or to conforming to a belief in the existence of unique universal morals, the one required to 'swear' but opts out, biases them as being nihilistic and most likely to act in ways that only serve their particular interest, including to lie.

gaffo
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Re: What is a lie?

Post by gaffo » Sat Feb 23, 2019 3:35 am

A_Seagull wrote:
Sun Feb 17, 2019 10:39 am
gaffo wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:40 am
A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am



But what if they believe it to be accurate but it is not.. is that a lie?
not a lie, they are just wrong.
A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
And what if they do not believe what they say but it is in fact factually accurate?
then they are lying per their eronius understanding, though speaking the truth.

so they are lying techically (per their understanding of what is true - which is wrong WRT the rest of us)

A_Seagull wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 4:58 am
And what about future events.. If someone says they will do something but then doesn't do it.. did they tell a lie?

What do you think?
if they said they would do something and don't do it - they ended up lying.
And what if the person claims that something is true while knowing that it only has a possibility of being true, and that it can't in fact be shown to be either true or false?

(I think a lot of philosophy falls in this category.)
per the individual - if they think its 49-percent lilkely to be true and state it as true, then its a lie.

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