Bias Against Transgenders

Anything to do with gender and the status of women and men.

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Nick_A
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Nick_A » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:23 pm

Walker wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:37 pm
Judaka wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:41 am
Conservatives in America... so many millions of people. Ranges of education levels, genders, ages, personalities, occupations, temperaments, motivations, lives and opinions. Can't you see how horrible it is to have a view like this about all of them? You hate all of them? You're convinced all of them are evil? You don't even know them.

Isn't blind and senseless hate what you're advocating against here? Or you just think your blind hate is valid while "theirs" isn't?
Appeal to Tribalism 2:20
College Humor
How To Sound Smart
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkPZx6hjG7E

“I’m a raven claw!” :D


Perhaps weeping for the future is premature.

Do you think this video is an attempt to awaken millennials from old, worn-out progressive delusion?

Or

Do you think it’s accurate reporting of political ignorance which appeals to non-intellectual emotionalism, via a cynical parody of gullible Obamanites who are soothed by calculated speech patterns.
The victory of style over substance. If this victory were not secured the demagogue would be powerless.

Judaka
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Judaka » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:12 pm

Nick_A

Lol, Nick, I think superficiality was always hip and I don't think the world ever had any awareness of the big picture.

Some people lean on certain views that rely on absolutes, depending on them for understanding the world and their place in it. Nuance doesn't fit anywhere and so it's easier just to pretend it doesn't exist.

I think people tend towards absolutes in the first place for psychological reasons, similar to what Walker's video refers to. That isn't my attempt in creating an us versus them and talking in absolutes to join the party though, there are always complexities that make everything harder to judge and understand and here is no exception. We can also assume that we aren't innocent of doing this sometimes even if we have complete self-awareness and good intentions.

Honestly though, I don't really get it. Even if, for example, Greta didn't think all conservatives were the scum of the Earth - it wouldn't make her arguments less compelling, true or virtuous as they were. From my perspective, it would rather make her arguments more interesting, to me at least, because if I know she doesn't disagree with conservatives because she hates them then I'm more interested to find out why she might be so opposed to what she considers conservative ideas. As it might mean she's seen some serious problems with them that I might like to hear about and consider or at least understand.

I mean it speaks to my impression of the current situation that I fully expect Greta, much like Spheresofbalance, to pretty much assume I'm a cunning conservative who's taken this position only for the purpose of disarming her and proceeding to convince her of how great conservativism is but whatever.

Walker

I'm not really sure but anyone who thinks it's only the progressives and liberals that think tribally in American politics hasn't been paying attention. I think everyone is learning about what tribalism and prejudice and so on are. The problem is that liberals/progressives have only learned to see it in those who aren't liberal/progressive and conservatives only see it when liberals/progressives do it.

Even though, I, like you, see this a lot more, at least as far as younger people are concerned, in the left than anywhere else (except extreme right) I still just try to think of these groups as comprising of individuals. I just preach for people to be able to see tribalism, prejudice and so on when they see it regardless of who's doing it and hope this leads to guilty people rather than guilty groups.

Nick_A
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Nick_A » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:16 pm

As soon as what one believes becomes a public truth we all lose. This question of gender identity is a good example. Everyone will just end up complaining. The beginning of this article reveals how silly this can become. Just imagine all the problems that arise when
"Together they argued that sex was fundamentally biological, and not socially constructed, and that there is a difference between women and trans women that needs to be respected."
Feminists agreeing with Trump supporters?? Simply intolerable. It leads to questioning the inequality of the Equality act. Is there no end to this madness? Only good scotch offers partial compensation

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/02/ ... f-sex.html
It might be a sign of the end-times, or simply a function of our currently scrambled politics, but earlier this week, four feminist activists — three from a self-described radical feminist organization Women’s Liberation Front — appeared on a panel at the Heritage Foundation. Together they argued that sex was fundamentally biological, and not socially constructed, and that there is a difference between women and trans women that needs to be respected. For this, they were given a rousing round of applause by the Trump supporters, religious-right members, natural law theorists, and conservative intellectuals who comprised much of the crowd. If you think I’ve just discovered an extremely potent strain of weed and am hallucinating, check out the video of the event.

I’ve no doubt that many will see these women as anti-trans bigots, or appeasers of homophobes and transphobes, or simply deranged publicity seekers. (The moderator, Ryan Anderson, said they were speaking at Heritage because no similar liberal or leftist institution would give them space or time to make their case.) And it’s true that trans-exclusionary radical feminists or TERFs, as they are known, are one minority that is actively not tolerated by the LGBTQ establishment, and often demonized by the gay community. It’s also true that they can be inflammatory, offensive, and obsessive. But what interests me is their underlying argument, which deserves to be thought through, regardless of our political allegiances, sexual identities, or tribal attachments. Because it’s an argument that seems to me to contain a seed of truth. Hence, I suspect, the intensity of the urge to suppress it.

The title of the Heritage panel conversation — “The Inequality of the Equality Act” — refers to the main legislative goal for the Human Rights Campaign, the largest LGBTQ lobbbying group in the US. The proposed Equality Act — a federal nondiscrimination bill that has been introduced multiple times over the years in various formulations — would add “gender identity” to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, rendering that class protected by anti-discrimination laws, just as sex is. The TERF argument is that viewing “gender identity” as interchangeable with sex, and abolishing clear biological distinctions between men and women, is actually a threat to lesbian identity and even existence — because it calls into question who is actually a woman, and includes in that category human beings who have been or are biologically male, and remain attracted to women. How can lesbianism be redefined as having sex with someone who has a penis, they argue, without undermining the concept of lesbianism as a whole? “Lesbians are female homosexuals, women who love women,” one of the speakers, Julia Beck, wrote last December, “but our spaces, resources and communities are on the verge of extinction.”.........................

Nick_A
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Nick_A » Sun Feb 03, 2019 6:43 pm

Judaka
Lol, Nick, I think superficiality was always hip and I don't think the world ever had any awareness of the big picture.
That's worth a thread. It seems to me that "shame" (not guilt) was the opposing influence to hip superficiality. Now shame has been eliminated in favor of glorifying the cheap.

Also art at one time was the best means for arousing the experience of awe and wonder outside of natural experience. It has been replaced by the attempt to glorify mindless technique and or shock value. Consider Frederic Church's painting "In the Heart of the Andes." Could its depiction of the microcosmos and macrocosmos and Man as a microcosmos within it be accepted today? Of course not. We are losing a connection with what is greater than ourselves so the only alternative is to glorify superficiality.

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/10481

Walker
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Walker » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:31 pm

Nick_A wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:02 am

Now as an expression of complete hypocrisy a politician introduces a bill that asserts a person must indulge in sports with the gender identity they are born with. How insulting and old fashioned. Modern education knows that we are what we think we are. Just because this male believing himself woman easily beats all women because he is man is no reason to assume he is a man. He is just a superior woman. Have we reached the stage in anti woman bias that we deny exceptional women?

An insulting attack on gender rights.
Spartan girls were raised rough with the boys to make them woman enough* to make a man man enough to be a Spartan.

Slaves did the work and the chores.

The Women of Sparta: Athletic, Educated, and Outspoken Radicals
https://www.ancient.eu/article/123/the- ... -outspoke/

* Like that strapping redhead Maureen O’Hara, whose persona was perpetual anger and annoyance to try and keep The Duke off balance.

Nick_A
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Nick_A » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:03 pm

Walker wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:31 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:02 am

Now as an expression of complete hypocrisy a politician introduces a bill that asserts a person must indulge in sports with the gender identity they are born with. How insulting and old fashioned. Modern education knows that we are what we think we are. Just because this male believing himself woman easily beats all women because he is man is no reason to assume he is a man. He is just a superior woman. Have we reached the stage in anti woman bias that we deny exceptional women?

An insulting attack on gender rights.
Spartan girls were raised rough with the boys to make them woman enough* to make a man man enough to be a Spartan.

Slaves did the work and the chores.

The Women of Sparta: Athletic, Educated, and Outspoken Radicals
https://www.ancient.eu/article/123/the- ... -outspoke/

* Like that strapping redhead Maureen O’Hara, whose persona was perpetual anger and annoyance to try and keep The Duke off balance.
Lately there has been a growth of xenaphobia amongst modern beta males living in fear of women. Now they are afraid that Xena the warrior princess wearing that short skirt will jump out from behind the TV screen and kick their ass. More and more men are falling victim to xenaphobia and psychologists are stumped as to how to treat this disorder.

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Greta
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Greta » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:08 pm

Judaka wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:41 am
Greta wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:38 am
What are you talking about?
I'm not saying you shouldn't defend your beliefs, standing up for your beliefs or refrain from arguing against the people in this thread. I'm not defending any of the individuals in this thread. I'm really referring to this comment:
This seems to just be just conservative tut-tutting about the concept of sex changes per se, seemingly because conservatives believe humans are all made perfect (aside from Democrats, liberals, progressives, secularists, Muslims, blecks, gays, transgenders, Chinese and women).
Conservatives in America... so many millions of people. Ranges of education levels, genders, ages, personalities, occupations, temperaments, motivations, lives and opinions. Can't you see how horrible it is to have a view like this about all of them? You hate all of them? You're convinced all of them are evil? You don't even know them.

Isn't blind and senseless hate what you're advocating against here? Or you just think your blind hate is valid while "theirs" isn't?
The statement referred to conservatives who tut-tut about sex changes, queerness etc, not conservatives per se.

I didn't fuss about precision because the level of wrongness in this thread has been so profound that, for someone to pick me up on loose language here is akin to a cop booking a jaywalker while surrounded by breakins, muggings and ram raids.

My comment was very obviously not intended as you claimed, which would makes no sense at all if taken strictly literally, given the numbers involved. (Besides, my father was a longtime member of a conservative party and I have been friendly with many conservatives in my time so any claim that I am bigoted against them is wrong).

I do not consider the current wave of reactionaries to be conservative. However, that is how they label themselves so I follow their own nomenclature. After all, I don't see too many moderate conservatives rushing to differentiate themselves from the hard right.

You do have the option of challenging hard right radicals who claim to be conservative so as to not sully your reputation. It reminds me of how moderate Muslims tend to stay silent rather than risk challenging their frothing extremist peers. Pretty scary to challenge extreme types, yes? It just causes a lot of trouble, doesn't it?

Still, moderate conservatives need to accept that your image as a conservative is being trashed by the reckless hard right. The latter have, almost entirely unchallenged, claimed the mantle of conservatism from moderate conservatives. Like taking candy from a baby. There has simply been no resistance. Rather, as with moderate Muslims, moderate conservatives were happy for the popular appeal of their extreme elements to carry them into power, but then found that they could not control the monster they helped to foster through their convenient silences.

Interestingly, many moderate conservative politicians have put up a fight, even if they have so far been beaten down. However, the moderate conservative citizenry have imply stood by and let their ideology be hijacked by aggressive radicals without even a hint of challenge. Who represents moderate conservatives now? Do they have a party any more or are they hoping that this lurch towards extremism will burn itself out so "safe hands" can return to the wheel?

It sure doesn't look like burning itself out because the wealth inequality that has fostered the alt right blowback continues to grow. It would be good for the world if conservatives joined the battle against the hard right, but my impression is that the very nature of true conservatism tends towards mildness, a certain passivity and trust in the system. So, when The System, so to speak, starts malfunctioning then it's not really in the true conservative nature to kick up a stink but to trust that the powers-that-be know what they are doing better that we little people with less information.

This is not a "true Scotsman" fallacy, as the shallow might want to allege, because the claim to conservatism by those with radical agendas should be seen as what it is - a misnomer by definition.

Judaka
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Judaka » Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:46 am

Greta

I understand you felt it was obvious what you meant but at least two people (Frank n Stein and Spheresofbalance) whether seriously or not, have defended your stance of hating all conservatives. I don't think it's fair to judge me too harshly for thinking that something so unreasonable might be occurring.

I don't really believe as you claim that the conservative label has been hijacked by the radical right, I think this is common rhetoric that just seeks to discredit opposition to the left. Even if what you're saying was true... as with Muslims, it's not right to then start talking about Muslims as terrorists just because you feel Islam has been hijacked by extremists.

You've put all the responsibility on the silent majority as being to blame but why isn't it your responsibility also? Aren't you legitimising the hijacking by ignoring the wishes of the majority and characterising their ideas as evil because you see the radical minority as being representative of the group? I think if we take any large group - we'll find unacceptable groups within that group. I just advocate that you need to be careful to separate things properly and refrain from overgeneralising.

Now, personally, I agree that Walker has said a lot of absurd things in this thread. I don't know much about him and if you want to claim he's part of the radical right then I probably wouldn't be here arguing with that claim. As far as your argument with him goes, it's pretty obvious at least to me that you are being far more reasonable.

I only complained when rather than saying Walker is an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about, you chose to bring in the entirety of conservatism under fire. I decided that was more egregious than Walker having stupid opinions about women and trans people. I would be doing the same in the case of Islam - a religion I detest - because it just isn't fair to bias yourself against all Muslims without knowing the individual. That doesn't mean I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you saying that you dislike conservativism and the ideals it preaches, just as I don't like Islam for those reasons.

I realise you've corrected one misunderstanding but what you're saying now doesn't really seem to change much.

Nick_A

Even deep concepts can be treated superficially, at the end of the day, people care about things like social status, belonging and image more than philosophy and it was never different. It's easy to take history as an event or thing in a time or place but we could do this in the present to. It's not as though the present is full entirely dominated by superficiality, not the case at all.

Nick_A
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Nick_A » Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:45 am

Judaka
Even deep concepts can be treated superficially, at the end of the day, people care about things like social status, belonging and image more than philosophy and it was never different. It's easy to take history as an event or thing in a time or place but we could do this in the present to. It's not as though the present is full entirely dominated by superficiality, not the case at all.
Deep concepts are always treated superficially by the secular progressives. Plato's cave allegory is based on the reality of the fallen human condition that has made humanity a slave to the shadow on the wall and unable to inwardly turn to experience the source of the shdows and finally the source of what creates the puppet masters. To accept the reality of our source is too offensive to be tolerated and must be condemned in the most vile expressions. I've verified it through what I've experienced in the secular world and also by personal experience.

If they cannot be treated superficially every attempt must be made to eliminate them and those who support them. The secular world cannot be sustained without the sacred being perverted into the secular.

The sad part is that liberty is impossible without the presence of the sacred so it does seem that when the young in the future begin to read some books smuggled in for them they will ask why the adults abandoned freedom for statist slavery which is destroying them the adults will tell them it was the hip thing to do.

Look for my thread in the General Philosophy board asking if a universal language is possible. What has being going on in this thread inspired it.

Nick_A
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Nick_A » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:07 am

Walker
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservat ... ted_States

American conservatism is a broad system of political beliefs in the United States that is characterized by respect for American traditions, republicanism, support for Judeo-Christian values,[1] moral universalism,[2] free markets and free trade,[3][4] anti-communism,[4][5] individualism,[4] advocacy of American exceptionalism,[6] and a defense of Western culture from the perceived threats posed by socialism, authoritarianism, and moral relativism.[7] American conservatives consider individual liberty—within the bounds of conformity to conservative American values—as the fundamental trait of democracy; this perspective contrasts with that of modern American liberals, who generally place a greater value on equality and social justice than on social order and tradition.[8][9] American conservatives also tend to believe in a small federal government limited to its constitution and very strong state governments.
Walker can you explain to me why conservatism in defense of liberty is so violently condemned. Is it because of its Judeo-Christian values or something else I am underestimating? Of course valuing gender differences is an important conservative concept. Would people prefer statist slavery to freedom to satisfy this obsession to deny essential gender differences?

People only begin to value freedom once they have lost it. Then they will have the nerve to curse out their slavery which they fought so hard to adopt.

Judaka
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Judaka » Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:33 am

Nick_A

I think it's the same every time... I can agree with you that many secular progressivess are not thinking deeply about things generally, they talk in absolutes and appear to lack introspection from a big picture perspective. I would also agree with perhaps a more left-leaning person like Greta if she told me that generally religious conservatives are guilty of exactly the same things. I think it's part and parcel with being a human.

Ultimately, it comes down to freedom and recognition of the proclivities of humans for which unawareness or disregard leads to disaster.

Personally, I find the distinction between Christianity and atheism to be rather hollow, throughout history, it's reaffirmed time and time again. Neither has ever posed much of a threat to the presence of evil.

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Greta
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Greta » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:22 am

Judaka, you had nothing to say about the mobbing and stereotyping of the weak but spoke up strongly against the stereotyping of conservatives.

// mirror

Nick_A
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Nick_A » Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:54 am

Greta wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:22 am
Judaka, you had nothing to say about the mobbing and stereotyping of the weak but spoke up strongly against the stereotyping of conservatives.

// mirror
That's a big problem with secular progressives. They limit themselves to collectives. They are unable to understand what it means to appreciate the limitations of humanity as a whole in Plato's cave as compared to the evolutionary possibilities for an individual. The secularist is limited to stereotyping collectives in accordance with societal standards.

Their fight is within Plato's cave. They have no comprehension of those who struggle with themselves in order to leave the prison of cave life so as to become truly human.

Frank N Stein
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Frank N Stein » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:02 am

Nick_A wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:54 am
Greta wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:22 am
Judaka, you had nothing to say about the mobbing and stereotyping of the weak but spoke up strongly against the stereotyping of conservatives.

// mirror
That's a big problem with secular progressives. They limit themselves to collectives. They are unable to understand what it means to appreciate the limitations of humanity as a whole in Plato's cave as compared to the evolutionary possibilities for an individual. The secularist is limited to stereotyping collectives in accordance with societal standards.

Their fight is within Plato's cave. They have no comprehension of those who struggle with themselves in order to leave the prison of cave life so as to become truly human.
Someone doesn't understand irony 8)

Judaka
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Re: Bias Against Transgenders

Post by Judaka » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:19 am

Greta wrote:
Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:22 am
Judaka, you had nothing to say about the mobbing and stereotyping of the weak but spoke up strongly against the stereotyping of conservatives.

// mirror
Mobbing and stereotyping of the weak? Nick_A seems more concerned with the actual OP, Walker is indeed being ridiculous and I've said as much and the other posters here are all on your side. What mobbing is taking place? I don't care who is weak and who is strong either. Individuals are strong and weak, groups are just comprised of individuals with various levels of competences, resources and strengths.

I saw the opportunity to make a constructive point that is close to my heart and I did it. I could argue with Walker alongside you, maybe if this thread continues, exactly that will happen but mostly his points are so stupid that I don't know whether there's a meaning or not to me debating him.

It makes me sad that I need to prove my moral virtuousness to have the right to speak to you but it doesn't appear as though you're interested in discussing this regardless so I'll just let it alone.

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