Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Known unknowns and unknown unknowns!

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surreptitious57
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:11 pm

Age wrote:
The genetic instructions which the dna molecule carries is the KNOWING of what is
right and wrong for a particular living organism or species to continual its survival
I dont think molecules are capable of knowledge and there is evidence that modification of certain
instructions in relation to survival is not passed on to every single generation but actually skips one

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bahman
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:33 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:11 pm
Age wrote:
The genetic instructions which the dna molecule carries is the KNOWING of what is
right and wrong for a particular living organism or species to continual its survival
I dont think molecules are capable of knowledge and there is evidence that modification of certain
instructions in relation to survival is not passed on to every single generation but actually skips one
I think our ability to learn is encrypted in our genes.

Age
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by Age » Tue Jan 29, 2019 3:46 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:11 pm
Age wrote:
The genetic instructions which the dna molecule carries is the KNOWING of what is
right and wrong for a particular living organism or species to continual its survival
I dont think molecules are capable of knowledge
To me a molecule may not be capable of knowledge but 'the instructions' built within the molecule is 'the knowledge' itself.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 5:11 pm
and there is evidence that modification of certain
instructions in relation to survival is not passed on to every single generation but actually skips one
If a species is still existing, then maybe the modification of certain instructions, which are skipping some generations, is because of the genetic instructions. If the species is still in existence, then the genetic instruction (the knowledge) is working just perfectly. Or, when you say 'modification of certain instructions' are you talking about human beings' caused modification?

surreptitious57
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:41 am

Age wrote:
To me a molecule may not be capable of knowledge but the instructions built within the molecule is the knowledge
Not so because genetic instructions that are encoded within DNA are information rather than knowledge
Knowledge is a sub set of information [ all knowledge is information / not all information is knowledge ]

Age
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by Age » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:26 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:41 am
Age wrote:
To me a molecule may not be capable of knowledge but the instructions built within the molecule is the knowledge
Not so because genetic instructions that are encoded within DNA are information rather than knowledge
Knowledge is a sub set of information [ all knowledge is information / not all information is knowledge ]
Okay, making a distinction is a good point.

Although what you wrote is only what you think/see and thus is NOT necessarily absolute, as the way you are proposing it here, one first glance I can see how using two separate words with two separate definitions can and will help in better explaining far more thoroughly how things actually work here regarding this matter.

Age
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by Age » Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:30 am

In fact on quick reflection the distinction you have shown me will help tremendously in regards to showing just how human beings were actually created, and came into being, and how they are also continuing to evolve into what they will eventually become.

Thank you surreptitious57

surreptitious57
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:53 am

The basic difference between information and knowledge is that information can not be understood but knowledge can
And so information has either no meaning at all or coded meaning while knowledge has meaning that is comprehensible
A piece of paper with random squiggles on it would be information while one with an equation on it would be knowledge

Age
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by Age » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:55 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:53 am
The basic difference between information and knowledge is that information can not be understood but knowledge can
And so information has either no meaning at all or coded meaning while knowledge has meaning that is comprehensible
A piece of paper with random sqiggles on it would be information while one with an equation on it would be knowledge
To you, hitherto, correct?

Are you able to speak for EVERY one?

surreptitious57
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by surreptitious57 » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:12 am


I have absolutely no intention of that and even if it were possible I would simply refuse

Age
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by Age » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:31 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:12 am

I have absolutely no intention of that and even if it were possible I would simply refuse
So, just to clarify:

What you wrote is correct, to you, up to the moment that you wrote it. Is this right?

And,

You are also unable to speak for EVERY one. Is this correct?

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attofishpi
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by attofishpi » Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:21 am

bahman wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:15 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:23 pm
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:43 pm

The question is how a limited code, DNA, can lead to such a complex structure, human brain.
Apparently there are 3 billion base pairs in the human genome. This works out to 2 to the power of 6000000000 combinations. Considering that 2 ^10> 10^3, converting, we get 10 to the power 1800000000 combinations. Some estimates place the number of atoms in the observable universe at 10 to the power 80.

So there are more cominations possible in the DNA of the human genome than atoms in the observable universe.

How limited is that?
It is not about number of random permutation. To me DNA is made segments each segment has a function. So one need to divide DNA to several segments to estimate total number of function DNA can perform. In case of human, the average human brain has about 100 billion neurons. Each neuron may be connected to up to 10,000 other neurons, passing signals to each other via as many as 1,000 trillion synaptic connections. This is by far bigger than number of segments on DNA.
An algorithm within a computer can produce far more output than its binary makeup, and it doesn't need to be random to permit a complex output.
So again, why do you insist on stating that DNA cannot produce a more complex entity - as the human brain?

surreptitious57
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by surreptitious57 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:06 pm

Age wrote:
What you wrote is correct to you up to the moment that you wrote it . Is this right ?

You are also unable to speak for EVERY one . Is this correct ?
What I write is sometimes an approximation of the truth rather than the actual truth
I speak for no one but myself but you already know this so no need to keep asking me

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bahman
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by bahman » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:47 pm

attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:21 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:15 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:23 pm


Apparently there are 3 billion base pairs in the human genome. This works out to 2 to the power of 6000000000 combinations. Considering that 2 ^10> 10^3, converting, we get 10 to the power 1800000000 combinations. Some estimates place the number of atoms in the observable universe at 10 to the power 80.

So there are more cominations possible in the DNA of the human genome than atoms in the observable universe.

How limited is that?
It is not about number of random permutation. To me DNA is made segments each segment has a function. So one need to divide DNA to several segments to estimate total number of function DNA can perform. In case of human, the average human brain has about 100 billion neurons. Each neuron may be connected to up to 10,000 other neurons, passing signals to each other via as many as 1,000 trillion synaptic connections. This is by far bigger than number of segments on DNA.
An algorithm within a computer can produce far more output than its binary makeup, and it doesn't need to be random to permit a complex output.
True. Because a program receives input.
attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:21 am
So again, why do you insist on stating that DNA cannot produce a more complex entity - as the human brain?
I don't think that DNA is a program which receives input. Do you have any evidence to show otherwise.

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attofishpi
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by attofishpi » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:42 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:47 pm
attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:21 am
bahman wrote:
Fri Jan 25, 2019 4:15 pm

It is not about number of random permutation. To me DNA is made segments each segment has a function. So one need to divide DNA to several segments to estimate total number of function DNA can perform. In case of human, the average human brain has about 100 billion neurons. Each neuron may be connected to up to 10,000 other neurons, passing signals to each other via as many as 1,000 trillion synaptic connections. This is by far bigger than number of segments on DNA.
An algorithm within a computer can produce far more output than its binary makeup, and it doesn't need to be random to permit a complex output.
True. Because a program receives input.
attofishpi wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:21 am
So again, why do you insist on stating that DNA cannot produce a more complex entity - as the human brain?
I don't think that DNA is a program which receives input. Do you have any evidence to show otherwise.
DNA appears to be a code of constants, but they really are not constants are they? The environment, food, etc provide plenty of 'input' for DNA to deal with and when a male and female produce offspring, that offspring is the input of two differing 'constants' plus all that affected their own DNA via their prior environments.
Indeed, when it comes to complexity of output within a computer program, very little is required as 'input' - for example, the eternity of a mandlebrot set algorithm - it goes on perhaps forever, but what was 'input' to it? Nearly fuck all.

Logik
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Re: Knowledge, encrypted in our brains or not

Post by Logik » Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:27 am

attofishpi wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:42 am
DNA appears to be a code of constants, but they really are not constants are they? The environment, food, etc provide plenty of 'input' for DNA to deal with and when a male and female produce offspring, that offspring is the input of two differing 'constants' plus all that affected their own DNA via their prior environments.
Indeed, when it comes to complexity of output within a computer program, very little is required as 'input' - for example, the eternity of a mandlebrot set algorithm - it goes on perhaps forever, but what was 'input' to it? Nearly fuck all.
So many people keep mistaking the complex for the simple :/

If one wanted to humble themselves all they have to do is study a bit of complexity theory.

Wolfram made a good effort at making it more accessible.

This is a a good start/taxonomy to examine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_ ... sification
Class 1: Nearly all initial patterns evolve quickly into a stable, homogeneous state. Any randomness in the initial pattern disappears.[39]
Class 2: Nearly all initial patterns evolve quickly into stable or oscillating structures. Some of the randomness in the initial pattern may filter out, but some remains. Local changes to the initial pattern tend to remain local.[39]
Class 3: Nearly all initial patterns evolve in a pseudo-random or chaotic manner. Any stable structures that appear are quickly destroyed by the surrounding noise. Local changes to the initial pattern tend to spread indefinitely.[39]
Class 4: Nearly all initial patterns evolve into structures that interact in complex and interesting ways, with the formation of local structures that are able to survive for long periods of time.[40] Class 2 type stable or oscillating structures may be the eventual outcome, but the number of steps required to reach this state may be very large, even when the initial pattern is relatively simple. Local changes to the initial pattern may spread indefinitely. Wolfram has conjectured that many, if not all class 4 cellular automata are capable of universal computation. This has been proven for Rule 110 and Conway's game of Life.
Just look at rule 110: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_110

It is even simpler than a fractal because it has no inputs. And it's Turing-complete!

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