What could make morality objective?

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:33 am

Logic wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
the things words describe have to actually predate the words themselves
And that would be evidence that you are describing your conception of reality
All language is conception and so it is impossible to avoid this unless one chooses not to describe anything at all
Would it be better not to have language as a means of communication or to have it but to accept its limitations

Would you rather be an object incapable of any thought simply existing as a thought less thing with zero self awareness
Everyone and everything in existence can not exceed their actual limitations and there is nothing to be done about this

We use the tools we have as best we can because that is all we can do with them

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:37 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:33 am
All language is conception and so it is impossible to avoid this unless one chooses not to describe anything at all
I am not saying we have to avoid it. I am saying that the distinctions you draw (e.g the taxonomy you invent) is yours.

I need not cut up my mind into the concepts you have cut up your mind into.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:33 am
Would it be better not to have language as a means of communication or to have it but to accept its limitations
Would you rather be an object incapable of any thought simply existing as a thought less thing with zero self awareness
Everyone and everything in existence can not exceed their actual limitations and there is nothing to be done about this

We use the tools we have as best we can because that is all we can do with them
False dichotomy. I never argued against language. I am merely pointing out the pitfalls and assumptions you are making for language to work.
You have the concepts of objective/subjective. I know how to use them, but that's not how I categorize my mind.

And so IF you insist on error-free communication, and IF errors have grave consequences then you need to make sure that communication is in fact accurate. And so if you insist on precision - you need to be aware of all the possible ways communication fails and avoid them. Actively.

Merely assuming that a statement is "true" is of no use if it's actually false. Some errors are unavoidable. But some errors aren't.
Which is why consensus-building is literally a science. A computer science.

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:47 am

Language is an imperfect medium because human beings who use language are imperfect themselves
The goal should be to make it as error free as possible because that is what improves communication

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:58 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:47 am
Language is an imperfect medium because human beings who use language are imperfect themselves
The goal should be to make it as error free as possible because that is what improves communication
I agree in principle. Demonstrate in practice.

You claim X is a fact.
I disagree.

How do we determine if X is or is not a fact?

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:11 am

Logic wrote:
How do we determine if X is or is not a fact ?
By asking one simple question : can this supposed fact be subject to potential falsification ?
If it can then conduct the experiment and if it cannot then it is not a fact even if it be true
[ But always remember induction only deals with what is probably true not definitely true ]

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:41 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:11 am
By asking one simple question : can this supposed fact be subject to potential falsification ?
If it can then conduct the experiment and if it cannot then it is not a fact even if it be true
I don't know. In the hypothetical I put forth you claim that something is a 'fact' and I reject it.

You can tell me what you think that means.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 10:11 am
[ But always remember induction only deals with what is probably true not definitely true ]
I am OK with that. Prediction is useful. Unless the cost of model-error is unacceptable.

Thre is a between 1% chance of my watch being wrong, and 1% chance of my parachute not opening is difficult to quantify.

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:25 am

Logic wrote:
You can tell me what you think that means
I provide evidence for the fact and you reject the evidence and to resolve it we
construct a testable hypothesis which can potentially falsify the fact in question

If it is falsified then it is not a fact and if it is not falsified then it is
If the result is neither then it cannot be regarded as a fact even if it is and an
alternative testable hypothesis would have to be conducted to determine this

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:27 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:25 am
Logic wrote:
You can tell me what you think that means
I provide evidence for the fact and you reject the evidence and to resolve it we
construct a testable hypothesis which can potentially falsify the fact in question

If it is falsified then it is not a fact and if it is not falsified then it is
If the result is neither then it cannot be regarded as a fact even if it is and an
alternative testable hypothesis would have to be conducted to determine this
To what end?

I can then go and reject the test methodology.
And the falsification criteria.

Poke a million holes in your starting assumptions. Point out that any result is coincidental not incidental given the small sample size...

Plenty wiggle room form disagreement.

surreptitious57
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:41 am

We both agree in advance what the precise methodology of the experiment in question will be
We both agree to accept the result regardless of whether or not it agrees with our predictions

We do not let our emotion decide for us but the actual result and nothing else
Emotional attachment to the outcome is both unacceptable and non scientific

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:01 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:41 am
We both agree in advance what the precise methodology of the experiment in question will be
We both agree to accept the result regardless of whether or not it agrees with our predictions

We do not let our emotion decide for us but the actual result and nothing else
Emotional attachment to the outcome is both unacceptable and non scientific
Yes, but to what end are we agreeing (or disagreeing) about anything?

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:17 am

Logic wrote:
Yes but to what end are we agreeing ( or disagreeing ) about anything ?
The acquisition of knowledge both for its own sake and any practical application that benefits humanity
Just think of all the advacements made in science that have completely transformed the way we all live

Logik
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Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:29 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:17 am
The acquisition of knowledge both for its own sake and any practical application that benefits humanity
It seems that conceptually we are in agreement on the mission-statement.

The rest is establishing the framework for shared decision-making.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:17 am
Just think of all the advacements made in science that have completely transformed the way we all live
Knowledge acquired for practical application is acquired through practice. Not debate.

We already seem to agree (broadly) what knowledge is and what it is for.
If we could also agree what it isn't I think we have a good platform for getting into particulars.

Beyond that verbiage adds nothing...

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:50 am

Logic wrote:
If we could also agree what it isnt I think we have a good platform for getting into particulars
Treating some facts as opinions
The justification for belief systems
Only accepting politically correct truth
The rewriting of history for political motive
The promotion of propaganda / conspiracy theories
Thinking that interpretation of facts renders them false

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:01 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:50 am
Treating some facts as opinions
The justification for belief systems
Only accepting politically correct truth
The rewriting of history for political motive
The promotion of propaganda / conspiracy theories
Thinking that interpretation of facts renders them false
All of the above can be explained through pragmatism.

The person holding said belief/opinion/etc finds utility in it (that you may or may not understand).
They find no utility in your perspective/interpretation/facts.

Their utility-function is different to yours.

You can expect a different utility-function to produce different thought/language/belief structure.

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: What could make morality objective?

Post by surreptitious57 » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:13 am

Logic wrote:
All of the above can be explained through pragmatism

The person holding said belief / opinion / etc finds in it value

Their utility function is different to yours
There has to be some basic understanding of definitions as everyone cannot just get to decide their own version of the truth

It cannot be defined by what someone thinks it is but what it actually is otherwise it ceases to have any real meaning at all

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