On simplicity of God

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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bahman
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On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:44 pm

God is love. God is justice. Etc. Either there is a relation between love and justice or God is not simple.

seeds
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by seeds » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:39 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:44 pm
God is love. God is justice. Etc. Either there is a relation between love and justice or God is not simple.
The only thing simplistic here is the mindset that believes that the words “love” and “justice” can describe a living, self-aware entity (God).

In other words (just like you), God can express the attributes of love and justice, but to confer divinity on such abstract terms is just the typical alternative for those who simply do not believe that a living God actually exists.
_______

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:07 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:39 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:44 pm
God is love. God is justice. Etc. Either there is a relation between love and justice or God is not simple.
The only thing simplistic here is the mindset that believes that the words “love” and “justice” can describe a living, self-aware entity (God).

In other words (just like you), God can express the attributes of love and justice, but to confer divinity on such abstract terms is just the typical alternative for those who simply do not believe that a living God actually exists.
_______
So your God is subjected to time?

seeds
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by seeds » Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:50 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:07 pm
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:39 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:44 pm
God is love. God is justice. Etc. Either there is a relation between love and justice or God is not simple.
The only thing simplistic here is the mindset that believes that the words “love” and “justice” can describe a living, self-aware entity (God).

In other words (just like you), God can express the attributes of love and justice, but to confer divinity on such abstract terms is just the typical alternative for those who simply do not believe that a living God actually exists.
_______
So your God is subjected to time?
Any entity that is self-aware is subjected to its own “relative” perspective of time.
_______

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:10 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:50 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:07 pm
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:39 pm

The only thing simplistic here is the mindset that believes that the words “love” and “justice” can describe a living, self-aware entity (God).

In other words (just like you), God can express the attributes of love and justice, but to confer divinity on such abstract terms is just the typical alternative for those who simply do not believe that a living God actually exists.
_______
So your God is subjected to time?
Any entity that is self-aware is subjected to its own “relative” perspective of time.
_______
But that is an impossibility since time either has a beginning or not. In first case one can ask how time comes into existence from nothing (remember that God is subjected to time therefore He cannot create time). We are dealing with an impossibility in the second case too, God cannot wait eternity to create the universe at a moment.

seeds
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by seeds » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:38 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:50 pm
Any entity that is self-aware is subjected to its own “relative” perspective of time.
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:10 pm
But that is an impossibility since time either has a beginning or not. In first case one can ask how time comes into existence from nothing (remember that God is subjected to time therefore He cannot create time).
Time had no beginning.

Furthermore, forget about the problem of time coming into existence from nothing and try to imagine how anything whatsoever could have come into existence from nothing?

That is the greatest mystery of all.

And don’t get sucked into the idea that a vacuum capable of producing quantum fluctuations is the “nothing” being discussed here; because a vacuum capable of creating quantum fluctuations is “something” and not nothing.
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:10 pm
We are dealing with an impossibility in the second case too, God cannot wait eternity to create the universe at a moment.
Why are you assuming that the Creator of our particular universe has always existed?
_______

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:46 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:38 pm
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:50 pm
Any entity that is self-aware is subjected to its own “relative” perspective of time.
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:10 pm
But that is an impossibility since time either has a beginning or not. In first case one can ask how time comes into existence from nothing (remember that God is subjected to time therefore He cannot create time).
Time had no beginning.
Okay.
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:38 pm
Furthermore, forget about the problem of time coming into existence from nothing and try to imagine how anything whatsoever could have come into existence from nothing?

That is the greatest mystery of all.

And don’t get sucked into the idea that a vacuum capable of producing quantum fluctuations is the “nothing” being discussed here; because a vacuum capable of creating quantum fluctuations is “something” and not nothing.
No, I am not following those paths.
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:38 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:10 pm
We are dealing with an impossibility in the second case too, God cannot wait eternity to create the universe at a moment.
Why are you assuming that the Creator of our particular universe has always existed?
_______
That is an impossibility since God has to wait eternity to reach from minus infinity to now,now being the moment of creation.

seeds
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by seeds » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:38 pm
Why are you assuming that the Creator of our particular universe has always existed?
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:46 pm
That is an impossibility since God has to wait eternity to reach from minus infinity to now,now being the moment of creation.
By reason of the obvious fact that we and the universe are here, then clearly, it is not an impossibility.

In which case, you need to abandon the argument that says it is impossible and start focusing on “how” it actually happened.

Furthermore, you did not answer my question of why you are assuming that the Creator of our particular universe has always existed?
_______

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:35 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 pm
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:38 pm
Why are you assuming that the Creator of our particular universe has always existed?
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:46 pm
That is an impossibility since God has to wait eternity to reach from minus infinity to now,now being the moment of creation.
By reason of the obvious fact that we and the universe are here, then clearly, it is not an impossibility.
Okay.
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 pm
In which case, you need to abandon the argument that says it is impossible and start focusing on “how” it actually happened.
Why not? If I have an argument for it.
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 pm
Furthermore, you did not answer my question of why you are assuming that the Creator of our particular universe has always existed?
_______
Sorry that I missed that. God cannot emerge from nothing at a given point therefore He has to be eternal. But eternality is an impossibility therefore temporal God does not exist.

seeds
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by seeds » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:22 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 pm
...you did not answer my question of why you are assuming that the Creator of our particular universe has always existed?
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:35 pm
God cannot emerge from nothing at a given point...
But if the universe can come into existence at what seems to be a given point, then why not God?
_______

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:37 pm

seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:22 pm
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:20 pm
...you did not answer my question of why you are assuming that the Creator of our particular universe has always existed?
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:35 pm
God cannot emerge from nothing at a given point...
But if the universe can come into existence at what seems to be a given point, then why not God?
_______
Basically, God is an idea which is supposed to resolve the problem related to facts that the universe exists and nothing has no causal power. If we accept that nothing has no causal power then it could not cause God. We don't need God if nothing can cause the universe.

seeds
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by seeds » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:24 am

seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:22 pm
But if the universe can come into existence at what seems to be a given point, then why not God?
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:37 pm
Basically, God is an idea which is supposed to resolve the problem related to facts that the universe exists and nothing has no causal power. If we accept that nothing has no causal power then it could not cause God. We don't need God if nothing can cause the universe.
No, bahman.

God is an idea that resolves the problem relating to the incomprehensible level of order of the universe, as opposed to the idea of blind and mindless chance being the reason.

And just for clarification purposes, are you arguing for the existence of a sentient God, or against the existence of a sentient God?
_______

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:30 am

seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:24 am
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:22 pm
But if the universe can come into existence at what seems to be a given point, then why not God?
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:37 pm
Basically, God is an idea which is supposed to resolve the problem related to facts that the universe exists and nothing has no causal power. If we accept that nothing has no causal power then it could not cause God. We don't need God if nothing can cause the universe.
No, bahman.

God is an idea that resolves the problem relating to the incomprehensible level of order of the universe, as opposed to the idea of blind and mindless chance being the reason.
This and that that I mentioned. Here we are interested on simplicity of God though.
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:24 am
And just for clarification purposes, are you arguing for the existence of sentient God, or against the existence of a sentient God?
_______
I am arguing against simplicity of God.

seeds
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by seeds » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:52 am

seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:24 am
And just for clarification purposes, are you arguing for the existence of a sentient God, or against the existence of a sentient God?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:30 am
I am arguing against simplicity of God.
Again, you are sidestepping my questions.

Let me rephrase:

Do you think that God is a conscious entity that is aware of its own “I-Am-ness”?
_______

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bahman
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Re: On simplicity of God

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:57 am

seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:52 am
seeds wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:24 am
And just for clarification purposes, are you arguing for the existence of sentient God, or against the existence of a sentient God?
bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:30 am
I am arguing against simplicity of God.
Again, you are sidestepping my questions.

Let me rephrase:

Do you think that God is a conscious entity that is aware of its own “I-Am-ness”?
_______
Let's assume so. What do you want to show?

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