The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Is there a God? If so, what is She like?

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surreptitious57
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:01 am

LOGIK wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Is the Universe ALL THAT EXISTS in physical reality or is it simply a concept within my mind
Thats just more language confusion and mental compartmentalisation

You get to decide what categories you have in your head

You can have a box labeled things that exist in physical reality . Lets call it Box A
You can have a box labelled things that exist outside of physical reality . Lets call it Box B

If so you choose . The boxes are not the problem . The problem is where do you draw the line between
physical and non physical reality . How do you decide what goes in Box A and Box B is the problem
There is no such thing as non physical reality because even at the Planck scale SOMETHING exists even if it is only energy
So in my mind and the actual mind independent Universe which exists outside of it there is only a Box A and nothing else

The only thing I can think of being in Box B would be a metaphysical being [ God ] or metaphysical states but I dont believe in them

Logik
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:08 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:01 am
There is no such thing as non physical reality because even at the Planck scale SOMETHING exists even if it is only energy
So in my mind and the actual mind independent Universe which exists outside of it there is only a Box A and nothing else
With you. There is only box A.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:01 am
The only thing I can think of being in Box B would be a metaphysical being [ God ] or metaphysical states but I dont believe in them
I don't have a Box B. To say a phrase like "the metaphysical exists" is to invent box B.

But as soon as you invent Box B, then you have necessarily invented a container which holds both Boxes A and B. This contradicts the axiom: There is only box A!

I have many conceptions for "God" which are either identical to Box A (pantheism) or conceptions of God which simply fit into Box A (super-intelligent alien-race etc.). I have no conceptions of "God" which go outside of Box A.

surreptitious57
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:36 am

Actually the metaphysical would exist in both Box A and Box B

Box A because it came from the mind which is the function of the brain so is something that actually exists
Box B because outside of the mind that imagined it it does not actually exist anywhere else in the Universe

Alternatively one could say that all imaginary concepts only come from Box A because they only exist in the mind
Since the Universe by definition is ALL THERE IS then they cannot exist outside of it anyway as this is not possible

Nothing can either logically / mathematically or physically exist outside of anything that is defined as ALL THAT EXISTS
Since it would violate the Law Of Non Contradiction which says that two incompatible statements can not both be true

Logik
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:58 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:36 am
Actually the metaphysical would exist in both Box A and Box B
Quantum? :)
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:36 am
Box A because it came from the mind which is the function of the brain so is something that actually exists
Box B because outside of the mind that imagined it it does not actually exist anywhere else in the Universe
But the mind imagines all-there-is. And all there has to include the imagination. Otherwise what you have imagined is not "all there is".

The contents of your mind (however crazy) still exist within the universe.

You cannot escape this recursion.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:36 am
Alternatively one could say that all imaginary concepts only come from Box A because they only exist in the mind
Since the Universe by definition is ALL THERE IS then they cannot exist outside of it anyway as this is not possible
Right,
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:36 am
Nothing can either logically / mathematically or physically exist outside of anything that is defined as ALL THAT EXISTS
Since it would violate the Law Of Non Contradiction which says that two incompatible statements can not both be true
Which is why you need to choose whether you adhere to set theory, which breaks down exactly like our box arguments do, as per Cantor's theorem.
Or whether you use ZFC set theory (which attempts to avoid this paradox).
Or pick a new mathematical foundation for "ALL".

surreptitious57
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:54 am

We could simplify it and say this

Box A is EVERYTHING INSIDE MIND
Box B is EVERYTHING OUTSIDE MIND

Now this is very problematic indeed for the reason you gave although
when physicists talk about the Universe they do not include the mind

So I would simply have this

Box A is the observable Universe

Now you might say what about the UNOBSERVABLE Universe
But as it cannot actually be observed then it can be ignored

I am ONLY concerned with what exists independent of my mind
And that is the external observable Universe and nothing else

Logik
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:09 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:54 am
We could simplify it and say this

Box A is EVERYTHING INSIDE MIND
Box B is EVERYTHING OUTSIDE MIND
That's a paradox.

Is your mind inside Box B?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:54 am
Now this is very problematic indeed for the reason you gave although
when physicists talk about the Universe they do not include the mind
But they do include the observer. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_reference
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:54 am
So I would simply have this

Box A is the observable Universe
See! Observable by whom ? ;)

Is the observer in Box A or B ?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:54 am
Now you might say what about the UNOBSERVABLE Universe
But as it cannot actually be observed then it can be ignored
Unobservable by whom?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:54 am
I am ONLY concerned with what exists independent of my mind
And that is the external observable Universe and nothing else
The observable universe exists independent of your mind? I see.

What are you observing it with?

surreptitious57
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:33 am

All knowledge comes from the brain and mind is the function of the brain and so
everything I observe comes through the brain including the observable Universe

BUT the observable Universe is not a construction of my mind [ because solipsism is false ]
I now have five boxes here that include EVERYTHING to satisfy your pedantry and they are

Box A : the unobservable Universe [ unobservable to everyone ]
Box B : the observable Universe [ observable to at least some ]
Box C : thoughts only within my mind
Box D : thoughts only within other minds
Box E : anything else [ although this box may actually be empty ]

These five boxes can be split into smaller sub sets but that is the smallest number for EVERYTHING

Logik
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:47 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:33 am
BUT the observable Universe is not a construction of my mind [ because solipsism is false ]
You over-state solipsism's claims.

The contents of the universe (the box) are perceived by your mind.
The universe (the box) itself is not.

This is the ontological language game. Planets exist. Stars exist. Galaxies exist. The universe does not "exist" like stars and planets exist.

It's a collective noun.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:33 am
I now have five boxes here that include EVERYTHING to satisfy your pedantry and they are
The law of non-contradiction is pedantry now?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:33 am
Box A : the unobservable Universe [ unobservable to everyone ]
Box B : the observable Universe [ observable to at least some ]
Box C : thoughts only within my mind
Box D : thoughts only within other minds
Box E : anything else [ although this box may actually be empty ]

These five boxes can be split into smaller sub sets but that is the smallest number for EVERYTHING
So is there Box 0 which contains Boxes A,B,C,D and E? Yes or No will suffice.

And in which box does the observer go into?

surreptitious57
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:00 am

LOGIK wrote:
This is the ontological language game . Planets exist . Stars exist. Galaxies exist . The universe does not exist like stars and planets exist .

Its a collective noun
The Universe is composed of planets and stars and galaxies so if they exist then it must as well
It does not actually matter what label you give things because they still exist in physical reality
For most of the Universes existence it or nothing within it had any labels as it was all name less

surreptitious57
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:08 am

LOGIK wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
Box A : the unobservable Universe [ unobservable to everyone ]
Box B : the observable Universe [ observable to at least some ]
Box C : thoughts only within my mind
Box D : thoughts only within other minds
Box E : anything else [ although this box may actually be empty ]

These five boxes can be split into smaller sub sets but that is the smallest number for EVERYTHING
So is there Box 0 which contains Boxes A B C D and E
And in which box does the observer go into
I have not included a box for EVERYTHING as a single set so that can be Box F
The observer goes in Boxes B C D so EVERYTHING is now in six boxes not five

Logik
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:09 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:08 am
I have not included a box for EVERYTHING as a single set so that can be Box F
OK. Box F it is then.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:08 am
The observer goes in Boxes B C D so EVERYTHING is now in six boxes not five
I don't know how to put one thing in two or more boxes at the same time.

But you haven't really solved anything. Does the observer go into Box F or not ?

Logik
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:12 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:00 am
The Universe is composed of planets and stars and galaxies so if they exist then it must as well
It does not actually matter what label you give things because they still exist in physical reality
For most of the Universes existence it or nothing within it had any labels as it was all name less
I am trying to get you to spot your mind's insistence on drawing lines. Creating boxes.
Categories.

Categories are features of your mind. Not features of the universe.

Which leaves us with the paradox of the category which we call ALL.

Does it exist or does it not exist?
We can say that it exists.
We can say that it does not exist.

It's just a choice of language. It has no bearing on what's "out there".

But if you insist on strict adherence to the law of non-contradiction you are going to have a really hard time making this choice. As both choices lead to a contradiction/paradox.
This is one of those choices where you go "Fuck it. What we say about the universe's existence is of absolutely no consequence."

surreptitious57
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:41 am

All categories are mental approximations / interpretations of physical reality
We use them in order to understand that reality better from our perspective
They are not necessarily fool proof and so may therefore need to be revised
They do however help to advance our knowledge which is why we use them

Logik
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:45 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:41 am
All categories are mental approximations / interpretations of physical reality
We use them in order to understand that reality better from our perspective
They are not necessarily fool proof and so may therefore need to be revised
They do however help to advance our knowledge which is why we use them
So what about the category which you call "The Universe" ?

The box in which you put all of your thoughts. What can you say about it?

surreptitious57
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Re: The greatest imaginable is much less than the greatest possible -- Anselm fails

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:47 am

LOGIK wrote:
What we say about the universes existence is of absolutely no consequence
We are only passing through and so none of what we do truly matters in the grand scheme of things
The Universe will carry on existing in total indifference long after the human race has ceased to be

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