Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

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Dubious
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Dubious » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:03 pm

Consciousness derives solely from the physical brain. I realize that so many find this demeaning. What's demeaning to me is giving humans a value they never had, never possessed and never will. Humans seem desperate to give themselves more then was ever granted. The "only real" difference between us and most other animals is the fact that there's more meat stuffed in our craniums making us king of the meatheads.

seeds
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by seeds » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:36 pm

_______

I suggest that the essence of life (the foundation of consciousness) is present within every fiber of the fabric of reality.

And if one stitches the fibers together into just the right configuration (a brain, for example) it can prompt (trigger/induce) the essence of life into acquiring consciousness.

And what that implies (though I highly doubt that it will ever happen) is that even artificial intelligence could someday achieve consciousness.
_______

Impenitent
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Impenitent » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:39 pm

Dubious wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:03 pm
Consciousness derives solely from the physical brain. I realize that so many find this demeaning. What's demeaning to me is giving humans a value they never had, never possessed and never will. Humans seem desperate to give themselves more then was ever granted. The "only real" difference between us and most other animals is the fact that there's more meat stuffed in our craniums making us king of the meatheads.
Rob Reiner is smiling

-Imp

Walker
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Walker » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:57 pm

Sperm Whales are king of the meat heads, not hoomans.

Elephants and dolphins are merely indecipherable geniuses.

Dubious
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Dubious » Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:25 am

Walker wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:57 pm
Sperm Whales are king of the meat heads, not hoomans.
That's the reason I said "most other animals". The main difference being hoomans known all about meatheads and whales don't! Even old Archie B knew about meatheads having enough of it himself.

Nick_A
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:40 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:20 am
Nick_A wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:21 pm
V A
When consciousness is assumed to be from an outside source, there is the possibility of an obligation to the outside source, e.g. from God thus the obligation to obey the commands of God. The worst is when the commands of God are laden with evil elements as in the case of Islam. [note the Armenian Genocide by Islamists is traceable to verses in the Quran]
You are describing the effects of idolatry which is a corruption of the conscious connection between human consciousness and the ineffable source of consciousness.
Nope!
Note idolatry is the greatest sin in monotheistic Islam. So my point has nothing to do with idolatry.
I have argued the yearning to view consciousness is from an external sources is purely driven by one's own psychology arising from an existential crisis.
The existential crisis resulting from the human need for meaning beyond what the world provides is as normal as the need for nutrition.
Yes, it is inherent in ALL human beings. The majority who are greatly affected by the existential crisis and drove them to view consciousness is from an external source, i.e. a God which in SOME ways contributed to terrible evil and violent acts.
You are in the same shoes as them albeit in a lower degree thus not violent.
Btw, what do you have to lose if you give up the idea 'consciousness is from an external source'? - there is nothing to lose except the psychological effects of Angst.
This is the normal secular approach. It results in killing the attraction to eros in the young as well as inflicting metaphysical repression on the young. Why would I be attracted to a secular approach which causes spiritual death?
You are shifty here.
I am not diverting to any secular approach.
It is very possible to give up the idea 'consciousness is from an external source' from within the highest practice of spirituality, note Buddhism and others of the like.

What you are practicing may not be involved in spiritual death but many of your bethrens of the same thought are actually repressing spiritual growth, e.g. Islam which believe consciousness is from an external source, i.e. a God.
On the other hand if you accept consciousness is an emergent from one's own brain/mind, one will have the freedom and control over whatever one acts consciously, instead of by what God [in a book] said so!
You deny the human condition which prevents the freedom and control necessary for striving to become human. Without conscious help from above our species is destined to turn in circles following nature's cycles described in Ecclesiastes 3
Deny?? how can I deny when I claimed the following as above, i.e.

"one will have the freedom and control over whatever one acts consciously"
plus the freedom the act within the highest moral expectations.

How can you claim freedom when you are bonded to something external [illusory]?
Note without conscious help from the external [God] humanity has achieved the 100% establishment of laws to abolish chattel slavery which some theistic beliefs are still stuck with immutable commands that condone slavery.

Btw, do not introduce anything to do with 'secular' [red herring] in this discussion.
My proposals are based on non-theistic spirituality of the highest level.
You seem closed to both a sense of scale and relativity. You don't see that religion is a relative concept and how small we are as compared to our vast universe. Are Islam and sufism the same to you? I remember having a wonderful discussion with two Sufis on the concept of light while Christians were being killed in the mid east. If you can be open to the Transcendent Unity of Religions then we can communicate But if you insist on limiting yourself to the exoteric perspective, we cannot communicate since your concept of religion is different than mine

https://integralscience.wordpress.com/1 ... religions/

Frithjof Schuon, a scholar and an authority on Comparative
Religion and the Sophia Perennis, has written a book called
The Transcendent Unity Of Religions. As its title
indicates, the book is about the unity of religious wisdom.
And as the use of the definite article indicates, this unity
is unique. But it is essential to observe that this unity is
also transcendent, i.e., the unity is in the spirit and not
in the letter.

Schuon uses the terms esoteric and exoteric to distinguish
the transcendent spirit of religions from their diverse
formal expressions. A useful diagram can be made which helps
illustrate the essence of this idea:
The diagram either makes sense to you or it doesn't. All petty nonsense takes place at the exoteric level. Some realize it and try to become part of the esoteric level which is the awakening path leading to the transcendent level which is the origin of all the great traditions.

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Greta
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Greta » Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:23 am

Dubious wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:03 pm
Consciousness derives solely from the physical brain. I realize that so many find this demeaning. What's demeaning to me is giving humans a value they never had, never possessed and never will. Humans seem desperate to give themselves more then was ever granted. The "only real" difference between us and most other animals is the fact that there's more meat stuffed in our craniums making us king of the meatheads.
The brain processes qualia that is generated by whole body system. The brain in a vat thought experiment is a fantasy. It cannot work because, while the brain is largely who we are, the metabolism is what we are. Metabolism came first, then nervous systems evolved to keep the metabolism safe.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:18 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:40 am
You seem closed to both a sense of scale and relativity. You don't see that religion is a relative concept and how small we are as compared to our vast universe. Are Islam and sufism the same to you? I remember having a wonderful discussion with two Sufis on the concept of light while Christians were being killed in the mid east.

If you can be open to the Transcendent Unity of Religions then we can communicate But if you insist on limiting yourself to the exoteric perspective, we cannot communicate since your concept of religion is different than mine
You too quick in jumping to conclusion.
Having put a ton of work on the subject, I believe my understanding of spirituality and religion is above average.
I am very well verse with the relation between spirituality, religion and humans.
It is SO obvious we are relatively very minute within the universe [infinite].

I understand Sufis and Muslims relation to Islam very well.
Sufis do not practice Islam-proper fully but merely adopt whatever spiritual and humane elements within Islam to serve their purpose.
The majority of Muslims do not follow the ideology of Islam seriously and thoroughly. It is only a 20% percentile and the fundamentalists & extremists who comply with the doctrines of Islam more closely culminating in the evident terrible evil and violent acts.

As I had stated above;
"I am very well verse with the relation between spirituality, religion and humans."
So I understand very well where you are coming from.
The difference is you lack the understanding of yourself as a human being.

The more effective approach is not the transcendental unity of religions but the unity within the diversity of humanity, spirituality and religions.

Note ALL human beings share the same DNA at the most fundamentally level and that manifest a wide range of human behaviors in a systematic and taxonomic hierarchical pattern. I have no problem understanding where you fit into the overall jigsaw puzzle of humanity.
Your problem is you only know certain parts of the jigsaw puzzle and do not have awareness of the completed edges.

https://integralscience.wordpress.com/1 ... religions/

Frithjof Schuon, a scholar and an authority on Comparative
Religion and the Sophia Perennis, has written a book called
The Transcendent Unity Of Religions. As its title
indicates, the book is about the unity of religious wisdom.
And as the use of the definite article indicates, this unity
is unique. But it is essential to observe that this unity is
also transcendent, i.e., the unity is in the spirit and not
in the letter.

Schuon uses the terms esoteric and exoteric to distinguish
the transcendent spirit of religions from their diverse
formal expressions. A useful diagram can be made which helps
illustrate the essence of this idea:
The diagram either makes sense to you or it doesn't. All petty nonsense takes place at the exoteric level. Some realize it and try to become part of the esoteric level which is the awakening path leading to the transcendent level which is the origin of all the great traditions.
Since,
"I am very well verse with the relation between spirituality, religion and humans,"
I have no problem with the understanding the diagram and its shortfall in covering the whole of humanity and its place in the universe.

Note I stated ALL human beings has a generic DNA at the fundamental level. One need as much knowledge of this and how it effects the whole pattern of humanity's behavior.

I have discussed the above pattern in a wider perspective earlier.

First you need to re-analyze the above diagram into the following main categories;
  • 1. Theistic religions and spirituality - e.g. Abrahamic, Hinduism [majority], etc.
    2. Non-theistic religions and spirituality - e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, others
I have stated a few times with regards of the level of spirituality attainable within each of the above categories, i.e.
  • 1. Theistic religions and spirituality - Spiritual level from 1 to 75%
    2. Non-theistic religions and spirituality - Spiritual level from 1 to 95%
The spirituality that you are engaging has the attainable maximum limit of 75%.
The non-theistic spirituality has a maximum potentiality and possibility of 95%.
You need to understand this gap 20% between 75% and 90%.
Note this numbers are not meant to be precise but only to denote the relative differences.

Why the spirituality you adopt is limited to a spirituality level of 75% is because your type of spirituality is ignorant or are turning off the knowledge of human fundamentals stretching back to the generic DNA, brain/mind, etc and the ESSENTIAL psychological elements.

Now if you understand how the DNA and brain/mind works and then work your brain/mind thoroughly and reasonably you would not cling too much on any illusory transcendental reality [being, entity, Absolute, God] beyond human reality.

What you are ignorant or are in denial is the fact;
you and the majority are merely a "beast" at the core who has inherited some basic degree of self-awareness and crude primal reasoning, and who is evolving slowly with these inherent basic elements.
With such basic tools how can you and your likes be so sure what you are claiming [God exists] is really real and not due to the above limited psychological factors desperately pinning [subliminally] for psychological comfort and security?

So whatever claims re spirituality you are making, you must qualify it with reservations of this large knowledge vacuum/gap within you and thus reduce the confidence level of your claims accordingly.

Btw, what spiritual exercises [mentally and physically] are you doing to cultivate spirituality within your brain besides merely believing the literal statements/sayings of Simone's Weil and others based on faith 'God exists'.

I anticipate you will ignore the above due to being straight-jacketed intellectually and will desperately forced [blindly] the above into a negative pigeon hole of yours [straw man, red herring] and condemned them wholesale.

Therefore those who insist consciousness is received externally from some thing, they are spiritually immature with a potential spiritual achievement of 75% relatively in contrast to a possible 95% from certain more mature spiritual practices.

Nick_A
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:26 am

Greta wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:30 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:00 pm
Greta wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:53 am

Of course they arise from the Earth. In the past cells with a nucleus were a strange new innovation. Later, multicellular organisms were an oddity, surely not of this Earth. Ditto trilobites and their well developed eyes in a natural world that was either blind or blurred. Later, the size and danger of dinosaurs was not part of nature - until it arrived. Similarly self-reflective consciousness, which allows one to control one's own conditioning and gave rise to a level of control that made complex adult morality possible.
You will fight this to the end but consciousness descends from above while reactive contents of consciousness ascends from below. What makes Man unique is that human being exists at the point within the scale of being that serves as the transition between mechanical and conscious life.

Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
A perfect description of the point of transition between animal consciousness of Man born from below and the Kingdom as representative of higher consciousness. Of course the idea is repulsive to all those defending life in Plato's cave but those who have sensed a greater reality outside of the confines of the cave Man has the potential to become a part of, the description makes perfect sense.
Cool, conversation by declaration. My turn.

Actually, conscious life has been around for many millions of years. Humans are a little more aware than other animals but still very small and pretty clueless at this stage. I would not attribute humanity today with their future potentials, as we don't yet know to what extent they will be realised.

Re: "From above"? Well, almost everything is coming from the Sun, which comprises 99.8% of the solar system's total mass - the Earth is rubble by comparison. It's the nucleus of our atom, our creator, maintainer and, eventually, our destroyer. Alas, the Egyptian Sun god, Ra, and the Aztec Sun god, Huitzilopochtli, presided over some of the more bloodthirsty societies in history. Seemingly the Sun did not bring more advanced consciousness to them - or maybe they just misread the signs? Then again, perhaps it's time for a cult worshipping Saggitarius A*, the creator and maintainer of the Sun?

Ah, but such physical talk annoys you, doesn't it? ... "You are just a secularist!" ... "You cannot understand the higher dimensions of consciousness!".

What you would like to believe in are other dimensions of reality, where God would act as the base dimension from which all others spring, rather like the Sun's role, but informational rather than physical. Then again, there might be something else going on we little humans haven't thought of yet.

If we don't much worry about the science, then this is a brainstorming session. In that case we can happily ignore rules of evidence and freewheel (after all, boffins are paid to stay disciplined within their professional mental straitjackets - we need have no such compunction about cutting loose).

So, in such a spirit of feral intellectualism, I say that consciousness appears to be a natural deepening of reality's integration and reality with itself with growing maturity. Over time reality becomes a little clearer to itself generally, just as a child, and then adult, becomes more aware of him or herself.
The sun is considered the child of the Good. Where the light of the sun is responsible for our visible facts, the light of the Good is the source of consciousness and meaning within our universe. Plato's analogy of the Sun and the Divided Line clarifies this but requires a mind open to a universal perspective and not limited to a secular perspective.

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Greta
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Greta » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:14 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:26 am
Greta wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:30 pm
Nick_A wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:00 pm


You will fight this to the end but consciousness descends from above while reactive contents of consciousness ascends from below. What makes Man unique is that human being exists at the point within the scale of being that serves as the transition between mechanical and conscious life.

Matthew 11:11



A perfect description of the point of transition between animal consciousness of Man born from below and the Kingdom as representative of higher consciousness. Of course the idea is repulsive to all those defending life in Plato's cave but those who have sensed a greater reality outside of the confines of the cave Man has the potential to become a part of, the description makes perfect sense.
Cool, conversation by declaration. My turn.

Actually, conscious life has been around for many millions of years. Humans are a little more aware than other animals but still very small and pretty clueless at this stage. I would not attribute humanity today with their future potentials, as we don't yet know to what extent they will be realised.

Re: "From above"? Well, almost everything is coming from the Sun, which comprises 99.8% of the solar system's total mass - the Earth is rubble by comparison. It's the nucleus of our atom, our creator, maintainer and, eventually, our destroyer. Alas, the Egyptian Sun god, Ra, and the Aztec Sun god, Huitzilopochtli, presided over some of the more bloodthirsty societies in history. Seemingly the Sun did not bring more advanced consciousness to them - or maybe they just misread the signs? Then again, perhaps it's time for a cult worshipping Saggitarius A*, the creator and maintainer of the Sun?

Ah, but such physical talk annoys you, doesn't it? ... "You are just a secularist!" ... "You cannot understand the higher dimensions of consciousness!".

What you would like to believe in are other dimensions of reality, where God would act as the base dimension from which all others spring, rather like the Sun's role, but informational rather than physical. Then again, there might be something else going on we little humans haven't thought of yet.

If we don't much worry about the science, then this is a brainstorming session. In that case we can happily ignore rules of evidence and freewheel (after all, boffins are paid to stay disciplined within their professional mental straitjackets - we need have no such compunction about cutting loose).

So, in such a spirit of feral intellectualism, I say that consciousness appears to be a natural deepening of reality's integration and reality with itself with growing maturity. Over time reality becomes a little clearer to itself generally, just as a child, and then adult, becomes more aware of him or herself.
The sun is considered the child of the Good. Where the light of the sun is responsible for our visible facts, the light of the Good is the source of consciousness and meaning within our universe. Plato's analogy of the Sun and the Divided Line clarifies this but requires a mind open to a universal perspective and not limited to a secular perspective.
It requires more than an open mind, Nicholas, it required a definition of the capitalised "Good".

Re: a universal perspective. The universe is, if it's conscious as you posit (and my guess is you are at least 100 billion years early in believing so), then it's going to love everything and everyone within it because we're all part of Team Universe - there is nothing else. It's not as though it can be infected with parasites - it's ostensibly a closed system (although some aspects of the CMB suggest that's also a premature assumption).

To the universe there would be various tiny innocent beings oblivious to the degree of their smallness... bless their l'il cotton socks ... small creatures doing clever tricks as they collectively slowly wind their way towards whatever maturity may be.

Walker
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Walker » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:19 am

Dubious wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:25 am
Walker wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:57 pm
Sperm Whales are king of the meat heads, not hoomans.
That's the reason I said "most other animals". The main difference being hoomans known all about meatheads and whales don't! Even old Archie B knew about meatheads having enough of it himself.
I wouldn’t be so quick to put down whales. :D

I saw a news clip of one the other day on the television. It looked like a blue whale to my untrained eyes but I wouldn’t bet on it, although I once heard they’re making a comeback. This one looked like it was just having a good time jumping out of the water, maybe trying to see how high it could jump while turning sideways with its big fin pointing to the sky. Maybe a bet or a dare was riding on the jump since the humans with their known devious devices were hovering up there in a chopper with unknown intent. The young whale was playing chicken with fate, crossing the boundary road above.

The indecipherable whale with its big brain could well have transcended the need for hands from the very beginning, and thus transcended the need for what hands can do. Whales have food, they sleep, they breathe and stay warm. They communicate over vast distances in a language we cannot understand. They manage to have fun despite the danger of sharing the planet with killers, but those are probably the youngster whales since the old ones know the risk/reward of exposure to the killer species of hooman, and could be bitterly chasing their own private Ahabs.
But for all we know, the mind and spirit of a whale may even expand with magnanimity into sharing, such as all the leaping whales who have shared life by carefully avoiding kayaks and canoes.

Whales have no need to work like dogs as the saying goes, as humans do, and so the superiority of the whale in comparison to human, as an accurate perceiver of reality and knower of life’s purpose, begins to reveal.

On an objective scale with simplicity as the measure of profundity, the simplicity that we perceive in whale songs can be said to actually transcend the idle self-reflections of complexity to achieve the purity sought by Bach, and others. Their sense of rhythm doesn’t suck, it’s just based on a different physicality.

Logik
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:22 am

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:18 am
Having put a ton of work on the subject, I believe my understanding of spirituality and religion is above average.
A C doesn't cut it in this class. You need an A+.

Work harder!

Walker
Posts: 6378
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Walker » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:38 am

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:22 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:18 am
Having put a ton of work on the subject, I believe my understanding of spirituality and religion is above average.
A C doesn't cut it in this class. You need an A+.

Work harder!
That and an early couple of cups of coffee, breakfast of champions and warmup for another day in paradise.

Dubious
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Dubious » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:45 am

Walker wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:19 am
I wouldn’t be so quick to put down whales. :D
I would never put down whales and don’t recall doing so. In fact, if in my power I’d blow every whaling ship out of the water with everybody on it. The Japs are on the hunt again.
Walker wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:19 am
I saw a news clip of one the other day on the television. It looked like a blue whale to my untrained eyes but I wouldn’t bet on it, although I once heard they’re making a comeback. This one looked like it was just having a good time jumping out of the water, maybe trying to see how high it could jump while turning sideways with its big fin pointing to the sky. Maybe a bet or a dare was riding on the jump since the humans with their known devious devices were hovering up there in a chopper with unknown intent. The young whale was playing chicken with fate, crossing the boundary road above.
Being intelligent they are naturally playful; also, I don’t believe that empathy to some degree is beyond them. I remember a story from long ago which demonstrated exactly that.
Walker wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:19 am
But for all we know, the mind and spirit of a whale may even expand with magnanimity into sharing, such as all the leaping whales who have shared life by carefully avoiding kayaks and canoes.
I agree completely. There is much evidence that whales, dolphins, etc., are not immune to emotions we are familiar with and classified in the past as strictly human.
Walker wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:19 am
Whales have no need to work like dogs as the saying goes, as humans do, and so the superiority of the whale in comparison to human, as an accurate perceiver of reality and knower of life’s purpose, begins to reveal.
Not so sure of that. I don’t think they concern themselves with life’s purpose except to live it as given unlike stupid humans who keep asking the same stupid question a billion times over...what is life’s meaning or purpose.
Walker wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:19 am
On an objective scale with simplicity as the measure of profundity, the simplicity that we perceive in whale songs can be said to actually transcend the idle self-reflections of complexity to achieve the purity sought by Bach, and others. Their sense of rhythm doesn’t suck, it’s just based on a different physicality.
Absolutely! Carl Sagan included whale songs and other “earth sounds” in his recording for Voyager 1 & 2 which is only right since we’re not the only species on the planet that communicates. The tragedy is when will these sounds only be heard on recordings!

Dubious
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Re: Does the Human Brain Create or Receive Consciousness?

Post by Dubious » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:34 am

Greta wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:23 am
Dubious wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:03 pm
Consciousness derives solely from the physical brain. I realize that so many find this demeaning. What's demeaning to me is giving humans a value they never had, never possessed and never will. Humans seem desperate to give themselves more then was ever granted. The "only real" difference between us and most other animals is the fact that there's more meat stuffed in our craniums making us king of the meatheads.
The brain processes qualia that is generated by whole body system. The brain in a vat thought experiment is a fantasy. It cannot work because, while the brain is largely who we are, the metabolism is what we are. Metabolism came first, then nervous systems evolved to keep the metabolism safe.
Absolutely, no argument here. The brain in the Vat idea wouldn't be a fantasy if the vat were described as the somatic container of the brain which it really is. For the brain to exist it's obvious that metabolism or all the organs from the top down would need to preexist as its supporting infrastructure.

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