surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:04 am
seeds wrote:
I hope everyone will forgive me for constantly using the same visualization tools but imagine the large bracket depicted below ...
Past ---------[
... as representing the inception point of the universe and that each of the tiny dashes represent one billion years of time prior to that inception
as a matter of speculative logic at no point would we ever encounter a wall that would prevent us from extending the billion year dashes infinitely
Likewise the same would also apply if the bracket below represented the thermodynamic ending of the universe ...
]--------- Future
... for at no point would we ever encounter a time halting wall
In which case the most logical way of viewing the situation - ( at least from a purely materialistic perspective )
is that the universe is simply a momentary blip that arose within the eternal stream of time ...
ETERNITY ----[universe]---- ETERNITY
... and in no way should be perceived as the moment when time began as is suggested in your response
The truth of the matter is that the universe is in essence a machine like phenomenon whose cogs and gears can move no faster than the speed
of light . It is a machine that appears to have commandeered time itself and has caused all those who are caught up within its inner workings to
be subject to the machines highly specific cadence
Separating the Universe from Eternity is problematic because if the definition of Universe is ALL THERE IS then logically that would include everything outside of the Universe .
But there ALSO can NOT be any thing nor even no thing "outside" of the Universe. As you incorrectly stated but correctly suggested; if the definition of 'Universe' is ALL-THERE-IS, then that would have to include absolutely EVERY thing, which obviously any thing AND no thing is a part of.
For example, let us say that if you imagined that the Universe was of a particular size and limit and there was nothing 'outside' of that size. If one is going to define the 'Universe' as ALL-THERE-IS but NOT the "nothing" on the outside of that imagined Universe, then that is different. But, IF the definition of 'Universe' IS ALL-THERE-IS, then that is
what it IS. This means that if there is any region of nothingness, nothing, and/or no things, "within" or "outside" of an IMAGINED limit, then that MUST BE and is still included in the definition of the 'Universe'.
Now, obviously there is NO boundary, limit, nor barrier to ALL-THERE-IS.
Therefore, IF the word 'Universe' means ALL-THERE-IS, then the Universe IS infinite, AND eternal.
Simple AND easy really.
To IMAGINE that there is an "outside" of ALL-THERE-IS is to imagine some thing that does NOT exist. Of course one can make a model or draw a picture TRYING TO depict the Universe, Itself, like seeds has, and show a defined line of separation between things, and no things, but the region of no things is STILL a part of ALL-THERE-IS. which obviously has NO limit. Thus again infinite.
Also, in that picture of seed's Universe there obviously could NOT be a distinct separation between physical things, and nothingness, like shown in that picture. This is because there will ALWAYS exist a separation of space or no things between physical things and so to draw a distinct line like shown is a truly inaccurate depiction of
what IS actually Real and True.
To be able to SEE and UNDERSTAND this, just imagine that there was a supposed "limit" to the Universe again. Now imagine you are standing on a planet on the very "outer edge" of that "limit". Now when looking at the next planet or star along that "outer line" of the Universe. There is a region between you and the next planet/star of no things, nothing, and nothingness. Now could you point anywhere and SHOW another person a distinct line of separation between the "inside" and the "outside" of the Universe? Or, could you just SHOW an imagined distinct line of separation?
If it is the latter, then that IMAGINING is ALL any one is doing when they say there is an "outside" of the Universe, Itself. Human beings do have a tendency of doing this IMAGINING
what IS the Truth, instead of just LOOKING at
what the actual Truth IS.
If, however, it is the former, then can you explain how you could possibly do this?
surreptitious57 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:04 am So Eternity is therefore part of the Universe . And it has to be eternal since absolute nothing can only
exist infinitesimally before it is violated by quantum fluctuations