Morality as Symmetry in Time

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Logik
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:14 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:55 am
No, I turned it into multiple answers of the same thing, so the answer becomes a self referencing loop of multiple grades that can adapt to the problem instantly.
But does it answer the question?

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:17 am

Logik wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:14 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:55 am
No, I turned it into multiple answers of the same thing, so the answer becomes a self referencing loop of multiple grades that can adapt to the problem instantly.
But does it answer the question?
You get rid of the problem of dichotomy if you answer both at once. Instead of taking a "either/or" approach, a "both/and" works.

Logik
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:49 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:17 am
You get rid of the problem of dichotomy if you answer both at once. Instead of taking a "either/or" approach, a "both/and" works.
So have you gotten rid of the problem of dichotomy?

I'll just keep turning your claims into yes/no dichotomies...

This is the epistemic problem of criterion. There is no way to fix this leaking bucket.

Age
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:11 am

Logik wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:01 pm
It begs a question. The one question I am not sure I can answer: What makes us human?
What makes "us" 'human' is simply the word 'human'.

But what separates "us" human beings from all other animals is "we" are able to learn, understand, and reason anything. Although some other animals can obviously learn, understand, and reason, some things, only human beings, (that "we" know of), have the ability to learn, understand, and reason absolutely every, and any, thing.

Logik
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 am

Age wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:11 am
What makes "us" 'human' is simply the word 'human'.
Remember when you asked me "Who I am" and I said "Logik" and you said that it doesn't answer the question?

Why does 'human' answer the question "What makes us human?"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
Age wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:11 am
But what separates "us" human beings from all other animals is "we" are able to learn, understand, and reason anything
The decision problems in the above are as follows:

Can we learn?
Can we understand?
Can we reason?
Do we have the ability to learn, understand, and reason absolutely every, and any, thing?

Every positive claim about reality can be turned into a binary question...

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:43 am

Logik wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:49 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:17 am
You get rid of the problem of dichotomy if you answer both at once. Instead of taking a "either/or" approach, a "both/and" works.
So have you gotten rid of the problem of dichotomy?

I'll just keep turning your claims into yes/no dichotomies...

This is the epistemic problem of criterion. There is no way to fix this leaking bucket.
Synthesize the criterion.

Logik
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:05 am

Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:43 am
Synthesize the criterion.
Naturally. That's the pragmatic approach - synthesize your own criteria for sufficiency/success.

Just don't expect anybody (philosophers especially) to agree with them. So if other people don't care about my criteria, why should they care about my justifications?

The mechanism by which I synthesize criteria is teleology. Purpose/Goals/Objectives etc.

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Eodnhoj7
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Eodnhoj7 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:00 pm

Logik wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:05 am
Eodnhoj7 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:43 am
Synthesize the criterion.
Naturally. That's the pragmatic approach - synthesize your own criteria for sufficiency/success.

Just don't expect anybody (philosophers especially) to agree with them. So if other people don't care about my criteria, why should they care about my justifications?

The mechanism by which I synthesize criteria is teleology. Purpose/Goals/Objectives etc.
Actually Hegel/Fichte, the basic natural law of Aquinas relative to Male/Female sexuality, and ancient but obscure doctrines of Egyptian Hermeticism necessitate a process of synthesis inherent within the foundations of logic, with logic strictly being a form of "measurement".

1. A contradiction is observed where symmetrical phenomena are inherently divided or "opposing". This leads to a problem of "choice". I make a decision, follow through, and another decision stems from it in the form of "branching". The course of action divides, at minimum into a dichotomy.

2. This dichotomy observes that a unified route effectively comes to an ends. It lacks structural integrity and faces a void effectively. The "decision" is unable to maintain its own structure and effectively "dissolves" into a choice with the choice representing a dichotomy. One course of action cannot be maintained; hence it breaks apart into further courses of action.

3. The "choice" dichotomy is a result of another course of action effectively trying to maintain itself in light of an absence of order. The course of action splits into potential courses of action.
***** Time Constraint, will finish later.

Age
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:23 am

Logik wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 am
Age wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:11 am
What makes "us" 'human' is simply the word 'human'.
Remember when you asked me "Who I am" and I said "Logik" and you said that it doesn't answer the question?
No I do not remember saying that. What thread was it in and on what page?
Logik wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 am
Why does 'human' answer the question "What makes us human?"
Great question. Because what we tell ourselves is, to us, thee Truth.

What we tell ourselves may not necessarily be thee Truth but to us, the one we are telling it to, it is thee Truth.
Logik wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 am
://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
Age wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:11 am
But what separates "us" human beings from all other animals is "we" are able to learn, understand, and reason anything
The decision problems in the above are as follows:
What do you mean by 'decision problems' in the above?

What 'problems' are there?
Logik wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 am
Can we learn?
Can we understand?
Can we reason?
Do we have the ability to learn, understand, and reason absolutely every, and any, thing?
To me,
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Logik wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:18 am
Every positive claim about reality can be turned into a binary question...
Can every negative claim about reality also be turned into a binary question?

And, what is a 'binary question'?

Logik
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:44 am

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:23 am
What do you mean by 'decision problems' in the above?

What 'problems' are there?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_problem
A decision problem has only two possible outputs (yes or no) on any input.
In computability theory and computational complexity theory, a decision problem is a problem that can be posed as a yes-no question of the input values.
decision-theory.png
decision-theory.png (18.13 KiB) Viewed 471 times
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:23 am
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
The very fact that you have given an answer means that you have made a decision! That you have decided yes instead of no is immaterial - what is significant is that you have decided. 4 times!

You have made 4 choices.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:23 am
Can every negative claim about reality also be turned into a binary question?
I am not sure. Give me an example of a negative claim and we can do an experiment to see if it can be turned into a binary question.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:23 am
And, what is a 'binary question'?
A decision. See above diagram.

That the answer is "yes/no" is immaterial. That the answer is Boolean makes all the difference in the world.

All of these are Boolean propositions:
Is X true or false?
Is X right or wrong?
Is X correct or incorrect?
Is X left or right?
Is X up or down?

Age
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:29 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:44 am
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:23 am
What do you mean by 'decision problems' in the above?

What 'problems' are there?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_problem
A decision problem has only two possible outputs (yes or no) on any input.
In computability theory and computational complexity theory, a decision problem is a problem that can be posed as a yes-no question of the input values.
decision-theory.png
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:23 am
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
The very fact that you have given an answer means that you have made a decision! That you have decided yes instead of no is immaterial - what is significant is that you have decided. 4 times!

You have made 4 choices.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:23 am
Can every negative claim about reality also be turned into a binary question?
I am not sure. Give me an example of a negative claim and we can do an experiment to see if it can be turned into a binary question.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:23 am
And, what is a 'binary question'?
A decision. See above diagram.

That the answer is "yes/no" is immaterial. That the answer is Boolean makes all the difference in the world.

All of these are Boolean propositions:
Is X true or false?
Is X right or wrong?
Is X correct or incorrect?
Is X left or right?
Is X up or down?
So what?

What is the actual problem here?

What is a "decision" problem?

I do NOT see any problem here.

Logik
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:51 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:29 pm
What is the actual problem here?

What is a "decision" problem?

I do NOT see any problem here.
The "problem" is that you can't justify your answer.

If you were trying to answer the question "Can we reason?" and you didn't know HOW to get the answer, then you can simply flip a coin. That's a 50% chance of getting the right answer by pure luck alone!

The reason this is important is because it's an objective standard for certainty.
Because you are more certain than a coin in answering "Yes" then I am inferring that you have some process (algorithm) for deciding that the answer is "Yes".

But if I were to ask you "How did you reach this conclusion?" you are going to have a very hard time explaining it.

Don't focus too much on the word "problem" as it has negative connotations.

Because I can turn every positive statement into a yes/no question which you can't justify, the "problem" is that "Justified True Belief" is impossible.

Age
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:07 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:51 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:29 pm
What is the actual problem here?

What is a "decision" problem?

I do NOT see any problem here.
The question "Can we reason?" Can be answered either Yes or No by simply flipping a coin.
No it can NOT.

Tell me HOW a coin tells and/or gives you the answer to questions?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:51 pm
But you have decisively answered "Yes".
Yes that is what I did.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:51 pm
A coin is uncertain because it answers "Yes" 50% and "No" 50% of the time.
I am NOT sure where you are getting your coins from, but from the ones I have seen NONE of them are able to provide answers to questions. Let alone being certain nor uncertain about answers.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:51 pm
Because you are more certain than a coin I am inferring that you have some process (algorithm) for deciding the answer.
I hope I am NOT 'more' certain that a coin because ALL the coins that I know of have absolutely NO certainty at all.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:51 pm
Don't focus too much on the word "problem" as it has negative connotations.
But the word 'problem' does NOT have negative connotations at all, to me.

Why do you think/believe the word 'problem' has negative connotations?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:51 pm
What it simply means is that you have answered the question with some degree of certainty.
Yes I have.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:51 pm
But if I were to ask you "How did you reached this conclusion." you are going to have a very hard time explaining it.
How do you KNOW this?

What lead you to make this ASSUMPTION?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:51 pm
That is "the problem". The process (algorithm) by which you have concluded that people can reason is not easily stated in words/logic.
Hang on. You reached your OWN conclusion, without even attempting some thing yet.

Why would you jump to such a conclusion, so quickly?

Do you THINK you KNOW all the answers, already?

Did you reason out that things can NOT be easily stated in words/logic?

Also, that is NOT a 'problem' at all, to me.

You have yet to SHOW any problem here whatsoever, from my perspective. As I stated earlier, I do NOT see a problem anywhere here.

Logik
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Logik » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:12 pm

Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:07 pm
No it can NOT.

Tell me HOW a coin tells and/or gives you the answer to questions?
Heads - Yes.
Tails - No.
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:07 pm
Yes that is what I did.

I am NOT sure where you are getting your coins from, but from the ones I have seen NONE of them are able to provide answers to questions. Let alone being certain nor uncertain about answers.
I am not sure where you get your coins from, but my coins are two-sided.

Does God exist?

Heads - Yes
Tails - No

There! The question has been answered.

Now comes the next question: Is the answer correct?
Well, it's another yes/no question so.... flip a coin again!

Coin will give you 50% certainty. Every time!

Age
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Re: Morality as Symmetry in Time

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:24 pm

Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:07 pm
No it can NOT.

Tell me HOW a coin tells and/or gives you the answer to questions?
Heads - Yes.
Tails - No.
But that is YOUR decision. Not the coins.

That is YOU telling your-self the answer. The coin, literally, does NOT tell you any thing.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:12 pm
Age wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:07 pm
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:51 pm
But you have decisively answered "Yes".
Yes that is what I did.

I am NOT sure where you are getting your coins from, but from the ones I have seen NONE of them are able to provide answers to questions. Let alone being certain nor uncertain about answers.
I am not sure where you get your coins from, but my coins are two-sided.

Does God exist?

Head/Tails = Yes/No = True/False
There YOU DECIDED AGAIN.
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:12 pm
There! The question has been answered.
Has it? What was/is thee answer?
Logik wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:12 pm
Now comes the next question:

Is the answer correct? Well, it's a yes/no question so.... flip a coin again.
You sure get your answers a funny way, from my perspective.

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