Universe can't be infinite.

So what's really going on?

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Age
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:08 am

devans99 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:24 pm
seeds wrote:
Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:33 pm
Because it seems quite obvious (to me, anyway) that the endless and boundless, omnidirectional nothingness that is constantly giving-way to the expansion of our little bubble of reality (again, as depicted in the illustration)...

...represents a clear and tangible visualization of what the word “infinity” truly applies to, and therefore is neither “magic,” nor something that merely exists within the mind.
_______
But what if time itself did not exist in that boundless nothingness?
What if time itself does not exist in the bounded, or boundless, somethingness?

After all 'time' itself does not actually exist, other than in concept.
devans99 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:24 pm
Or if Einstein's conception of space-time is correct, there is no space-time in the nothingnesses.
There is also no actual space-time in the somethingness, also other than in concept.
devans99 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:24 pm
It simply does not exist because it has no time co-ordinate. Spacetime may have started at the Big Bang and expanded out from there.

That gives a nice neat universe that is finite both in space and time.
How does that give a "nice neat universe that is finite both in space and time" especially considering you used the words 'may have'?

Also, WHERE and WHAT could be the defining points or places to a finite universe?

surreptitious57
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Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:32 am

AGE wrote:
devans99 wrote:
But what if time itself did not exist in that boundless nothingness ?
What if time itself does not exist in the bounded or boundless somethingness ?
Time can only exist as the eternal NOW but how long is an individual NOW ? Since every conceivable length of time can be reduced ad infinitum this means that there is no objective measure of NOW . Yet everything is in a constant state of motion which cannot actually exist without time This means that motion can be reduced ad infinitum to the point of zero measurement as well

I think time definitely exists from a subjective perspective because it depends on the frame of reference of an observer
Whether it also exists objectively is much harder to determine . A Gods Eye View may not actually reference time at all

Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:47 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:32 am
AGE wrote:
devans99 wrote:
But what if time itself did not exist in that boundless nothingness ?
What if time itself does not exist in the bounded or boundless somethingness ?
Time can only exist as the eternal NOW but how long is an individual NOW ? Since every conceivable length of time can be reduced ad infinitum this means that there is no objective measure of NOW . Yet everything is in a constant state of motion which cannot actually exist without time
What IS 'time'?

What IS 'it' exactly, which without 'it' motion can, supposedly, NOT actually exist anymore?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:32 am
This means that motion can be reduced ad infinitum to the point of zero measurement as well

I think time definitely exists from a subjective perspective because it depends on the frame of reference of an observer
You, surreptitious57, are the subjective observer, and from that subjective viewpoint you are the one who sees 'time' definitely existing, so can you explain what 'time' IS actually, and how 'it' definitely exists, from your point of view?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:32 am
Whether it also exists objectively is much harder to determine.
Maybe for some, but not for Me.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:32 am
A Gods Eye View may not actually reference time at all
NOW, to Me, that is a much better way to LOOK at (ALL) things.

What 'i', a subjective person, subjectively, think has no any actual real importance to any thing at all.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3160
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:24 am

AGE wrote:
You surreptitious57 are the subjective observer and from that subjective viewpoint you are the one who sees time
definitely existing so can you explain what time IS actually and how it definitely exists from your point of view ?
I can only explain how time appears to me not what it actually is
To me it is the eternal NOW that is in a constant state of motion

surreptitious57
Posts: 3160
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:33 am

AGE wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
A Gods Eye View may not actually reference time at all
NOW to Me that is a much better way to LOOK at ( ALL ) things
What i a subjective person subjectively think has no any actual real importance to any thing at all
I try to be as objective and emotionally detached as I possibly can in relation to how I see the world
This to me is a Gods Eye View : to simply observe what is without applying subjective interpretation

Age
Posts: 2467
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:00 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:24 am
AGE wrote:
You surreptitious57 are the subjective observer and from that subjective viewpoint you are the one who sees time
definitely existing so can you explain what time IS actually and how it definitely exists from your point of view ?
I can only explain how time appears to me not what it actually is
Did you not notice the words, 'from your point of view', at the end of the question? I even used a comma to separate these words from the others so that it was slightly more obvious that I KNEW and MEANT that you can only give a subjective, from you, response. Although the first half of the question clearly SHOWED this also.

I asked what 'time' IS, from your point of view. Not what 'time' IS from an unambiguous, irrefutable by any one FACTUAL point of view. (There are a lot more things human beings have to learn first before that definition can be revealed to them).

My point was to SHOW that you can only ever explain any thing, by only how it APPEARS, to you?

AND, what APPEARS to you could, in face, just be a complete ILLUSION.

We will have to wait and SEE.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:24 am
To me it is the eternal NOW that is in a constant state of motion
Yes I KNOW this is how 'time' APPEARS to you. Without looking back i think it would be pretty close word-for-word what you said before, which I was replying to.

If you did not notice my question was asking you to describe 'time' in MORE DETAIL. If 'time' is an actual physical thing that DEFINITELY exists as you are portraying it, then EXPLAINING what 'time' IS better and more clearly would, some might say, be easier to do.

However, as I wanted to show, if some thing can NOT be very well, and/or simply, explained, then just maybe 'it' is NOT how 'it' actually APPEARS, to be? Just some thing to think about.

Age
Posts: 2467
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:18 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:33 am
AGE wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
A Gods Eye View may not actually reference time at all
NOW to Me that is a much better way to LOOK at ( ALL ) things
What i a subjective person subjectively think has no any actual real importance to any thing at all
I try to be as objective and emotionally detached as I possibly can in relation to how I see the world
I KNOW you do, and you have improved considerably over the months/years.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:33 am
This to me is a Gods Eye View : to simply observe what is without applying subjective interpretation
I agree.

And the very reason I ask you clarifying questions, when I know that you are just expressing a subjective, wrong interpretation of the actual and real Truth, is so that when you realize that you can NOT accurately, in full detail, answer the question, that you would then consider that just maybe that your subjective interpretation is NOT what (actually) IS thee Truth.

I am NOT here to tell any one what to think, see, nor do. I am just here to learn how to communicate in a way that people discover how they can find and SEE True answers for, and by, themselves.

What i learned that helps considerably is to LOOK AT ALL things from a completely OPEN perspective, FIRST, AND THEN use past experiences, (which are now, obviously, ALL SUBJECTIVE thoughts/interpretations/views/assumptions/beliefs/ideas/conceptions/et cetera, et cetera), to SEE/UNDERSTAND if what I am NOW SEEING is actually True, Right, and/or Correct, from an EVERY things' perspective, instead of just doing what i used to previously do and that was to just LOOK AT ALL things from my own past experiences perspective only, which NOW clearly SHOWS just how distorted things can simply, quickly, and easily become.

surreptitious57
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Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:31 am

AGE wrote:
If you did not notice my question was asking you to describe time in MORE DETAIL . If time is an actual physical thing that DEFINITELY
exists as you are portraying it then EXPLAINING what time IS better and more clearly would some might say be easier to do

However as I wanted to show if some thing can NOT be very well and / or simply explained then just maybe it is NOT how it actually APPEARS to be
I cannot describe time in more detail because I do not know what it is
I think I know what it is but THINKING and KNOWING are not the same

I am more interested in acquiring knowledge than any subjective interpretation
I am here to learn while I can and that is fundamentally what interests me now

I only want to be an observer rather than a participant but I am only human so this is a work in progress

Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:58 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:31 am
AGE wrote:
If you did not notice my question was asking you to describe time in MORE DETAIL . If time is an actual physical thing that DEFINITELY
exists as you are portraying it then EXPLAINING what time IS better and more clearly would some might say be easier to do

However as I wanted to show if some thing can NOT be very well and / or simply explained then just maybe it is NOT how it actually APPEARS to be
I cannot describe time in more detail because I do not know what it is
Thank you.

Now that we have established that already KNOWN FACT, let us move on.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:31 am
I think I know what it is but THINKING and KNOWING are not the same
TREE and DAM are not the same also, but just like your distinction it is an obvious fact of no actual use in showing here. Now, that we have got that out, just give what you THINK you KNOW 'time' to actually BE.

If all you can give is the same as what you write before, then just write "as above".
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:31 am
I am more interested in acquiring knowledge than any subjective interpretation
Sometimes you really do NOT come across that way.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:31 am
I am here to learn while I can and that is fundamentally what interests me now
Learn what exactly?

You can NOT really learn some thing when you keep insisting that some things are true, like for example: that 'time' actually exists.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:31 am
I only want to be an observer rather than a participant but I am only human so this is a work in progress
The contradictory nature of Life some times shows up in unexpected places. See, being born as a human being you were once a True Observer, but because of the amazing ability of the human brain to learn, understand, and reason absolutely any, and every, thing, you have unfortunately learned absolutely distorted and wrong knowledge, learned how to understand it in a way that suits you, and learned how to reason it out.

But fortunately, if you NEVER believe/disbelieve any thing, and you do not to often make assumptions, then you can undo ALL of that distorted/wrong knowledge and learn HOW to Observe, and SEE/UNDERSTAND, like you want to, that is; without applying subjective interpretation, or unaffected and emotionless. You can still 'pretend to be' and 'act' like a human being, without being recognized, you will just be able to LOOK AT and SEE what really IS, instead of what (you just think) it IS.

You used to do this, so it is NOT an unnatural act. You just need to re-learn HOW to do it, AGAIN.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3160
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:45 am

AGE wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
I am here to learn while I can and that is fundamentally what interests me now
You can NOT really learn some thing when you keep insisting that some things are true like for example : that time actually exists
I shall re phrase it then : I am here to observe in silence as much as I can before I die

Age
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:56 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 10:45 am
AGE wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
I am here to learn while I can and that is fundamentally what interests me now
You can NOT really learn some thing when you keep insisting that some things are true like for example : that time actually exists
I shall re phrase it then : I am here to observe in silence as much as I can before I die
Observing in silence is one way to learn, but it can be a relatively slow way to learn. Asking, and answering, clarifying questions from a truly OPEN perspective, then you will learn far more, and far quicker, then you could even have imagined, for now.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3160
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:13 pm

AGE wrote:
Observing in silence is one way to learn but it can be a relatively slow way to learn . Asking and answering clarifying questions
from a truly OPEN perspective then you will learn far more and far quicker then you could even have imagined for now
I want to be as open as possible and the best way to achieve this is by avoiding asking any questions at all
Because they might not be clarifying questions but loaded ones designed to reinforce ones own prejudices

I simply want to see and hear human beings without involving myself in any conversation with them
I only want to listen to what they are saying and nothing else as this is for me the best way to learn

Age
Posts: 2467
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:43 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:13 pm
AGE wrote:
Observing in silence is one way to learn but it can be a relatively slow way to learn . Asking and answering clarifying questions
from a truly OPEN perspective then you will learn far more and far quicker then you could even have imagined for now
I want to be as open as possible and the best way to achieve this is by avoiding asking any questions at all
Why do you say that?

To me, one can still remain fully OPEN and ask millions of questions. In fact it comes very naturally to younger children.

It is only when children are fed dishonest, untrue, not right, and/or incorrect knowledge, or they are encouraged/told to stop asking questions, that they then become distorted and closed themselves.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:13 pm
Because they might not be clarifying questions but loaded ones designed to reinforce ones own prejudices
Well if you can NOT tell the difference between truly OPEN questions that you ask and loaded ones, designed to reinforce your OWN prejudices, by now, then what is the reason for that?

I simply want to see and hear human beings without involving myself in any conversation with them[/quote]

If so wish, but coming onto a philosophy forum and having conversations with human beings does not really show that this is your true desire nor that this is what you simply want.
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:13 pm
I only want to listen to what they are saying and nothing else as this is for me the best way to learn
Okay, but if you are going to insist that some things are right, or the best way, then how much more are you really going to learn?

I find the quickest, simplest, and easiest way to learn is to just ask questions, and listen, from the truly OPEN perspective.

surreptitious57
Posts: 3160
Joined: Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:09 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by surreptitious57 » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:26 pm

AGE wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
I simply want to see and hear human beings without involving myself in any conversation with them
coming onto a philosophy forum and having conversations with human beings does not really show that this is your true desire
For me there is a difference between quietly typing words on a computer screen and engaging in face to face conversation
My mind is always at ease when I am on my own but when with someone else I am not in control as it is more spontaneous
Being away from others is good for my mind but I can still be around words and feel just as good so they are not the same

Age
Posts: 2467
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:17 am

Re: Universe can't be infinite.

Post by Age » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:37 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:26 pm
AGE wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:
I simply want to see and hear human beings without involving myself in any conversation with them
coming onto a philosophy forum and having conversations with human beings does not really show that this is your true desire
For me there is a difference between quietly typing words on a computer screen and engaging in face to face conversation
What is that difference?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:26 pm
My mind is always at ease when I am on my own but when with someone else I am not in control as it is more spontaneous
I did not know that a function of the brain had ease, or dis-ease.

How come that 'I' is NOT in control. If that 'I' is NOT in control, then WHAT is?
surreptitious57 wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:26 pm
Being away from others is good for my mind but I can still be around words and feel just as good so they are not the same
But "others" effect the functioning of that brain in that body whether words are emanating out of a human body standing in front of you through spoken words or from written words in front of you.

Why do you THINK the functioning of that brain is NOT at ease when a human body is in front of you?

Why would spontaneity put the functioning of a brain not at ease.

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