The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Discussion of articles that appear in the magazine.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

User avatar
A_Seagull
Posts: 780
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2014 11:09 pm

Re: education & indoctrination are intertwined

Post by A_Seagull » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:13 am

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:57 pm
One of the purposes of 'education' is to indoctrinate.

Indoctrination necessitates the telling of lies. Lies sow the seeds of evil.

Indoctrination has no place in a civilised school.

Logik
Posts: 3890
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: education & indoctrination are intertwined

Post by Logik » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:58 am

A_Seagull wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:13 am
Indoctrination necessitates the telling of lies. Lies sow the seeds of evil.

Indoctrination has no place in a civilised school.
Is omission the same as lying?

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4104
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: right here

"Indoctrination necessitates the telling of lies. Lies sow the seeds of evil."

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:18 pm

As a 'libertarian/minarchist/anarchist/free enterpriser/whatever it is I am', I began indoctrinating my kid early, hammering home that he is self-directing and -responsible. Initially, there was no explanation of the philosophical underpinnings: I just told him how he was to view himself, and others. I was very much indoctrinating him (and I still do).

Did/do I lie to him? Have I commited an evil?

#

"Indoctrination has no place in a civilised school."

If a school (as many do today) indoctrinates students with Marxist dogma, then, yeah: you're right.

In the rare case of a school indoctrinating students with notions of self-reliance and -responsibility, then, no, you're wrong.

Belinda
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: "Indoctrination necessitates the telling of lies. Lies sow the seeds of evil."

Post by Belinda » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:30 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:18 pm
As a 'libertarian/minarchist/anarchist/free enterpriser/whatever it is I am', I began indoctrinating my kid early, hammering home that he is self-directing and -responsible. Initially, there was no explanation of the philosophical underpinnings: I just told him how he was to view himself, and others. I was very much indoctrinating him (and I still do).

Did/do I lie to him? Have I commited an evil?

#

"Indoctrination has no place in a civilised school."

If a school (as many do today) indoctrinates students with Marxist dogma, then, yeah: you're right.

In the rare case of a school indoctrinating students with notions of self-reliance and -responsibility, then, no, you're wrong.
Henry, you weren't indoctrinating you were training your kid. Later on I suppose the kid is adult now, you will be influencing him or her, but that is not indoctrinating, because he/she is able to think and decide for him or her self.

Indoctrinating is forcing belief on to someone such as a child who is unable to resist the authority. No dogma, Marxist or other should be indoctrimnated in schools. While it's impossible for teachers or anyone else to be unprejudiced to some degree; schools should not go in for institutional prejudice.

Self reliance and responsibility pertain to education not indoctrination.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4104
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: right here

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:19 pm

"Henry, you weren't indoctrinating you were training your kid."

Half a dozen of one, six of the other.

If indoctrination is 'the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically' then I indoctrinated him, and I still do.

#

"Later on I suppose the kid is adult now"

He's twelve.

#

"you will be influencing him or her, but that is not indoctrinating, because he/she is able to think and decide for him or her self.

Oh, we talk and debate. There's quite a bit of explanation about philosophical underpinning, but not all the time and not about everything.

#

"Indoctrinating is forcing belief on to someone such as a child who is unable to resist the authority."

Yep. That's what I did and, occasionally, still do.

#

"No dogma, Marxist or other should be indoctrimnated in schools."

But it is, B. Nowadays: a goodly chunk of my indoctrination is counter the communitarian horseshit my kid is fed at school.

#

"While it's impossible for teachers or anyone else to be unprejudiced to some degree; schools should not go in for institutional prejudice."

But they do, B.

#

"Self reliance and responsibility pertain to education not indoctrination."

Again: six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Belinda
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Belinda » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:02 pm

Henry Quirk wrote:
"Indoctrinating is forcing belief on to someone such as a child who is unable to resist the authority."

Yep. That's what I did and, occasionally, still do.
I may be mistaken but the fact that you come here to debate in a thoughtful manner makes me think that you like your son to think about what you teach . Indoctrinating teacher does not want the child to think about what he is being taught but to think what he is told to think. At the age of twelve a child has a developed moral capability to think for himself.

In the case of religious education there is training the child to attend a church or mosque and recite prayers and hymns and so on. Indoctrination occurs not by practicing those religious rituals but by identifying with the doctrine to the exclusion of any possibility of doubt.

Nick_A
Posts: 3766
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:18 pm

One of the most harmful effects of secular education is that it causes metaphysical repression in the young and replaces it with indoctrinated results of superficial dualistic reason. Of course those like Socrates and Plato understood but in these times only a precious few are gifted with such depth and the majority just go with the devolving flow.
“If men learn this, it will implant forgetfulness in their souls; they will cease to exercise memory because they rely on that which is written, calling things to remembrance no longer from within themselves, but by means of external marks. What you have discovered is a recipe not for memory, but for reminder. And it is no true wisdom that you offer your disciples, but only its semblance, for by telling them of many things without teaching them you will make them seem to know much, while for the most part they know nothing, and as men filled, not with wisdom, but with the conceit of wisdom, they will be a burden to their fellows.”
― Plato, Phaedrus
The results of progressive secular education is to implant forgetfulness in the souls of the young. God bless the parents of the young with the love and courage to provide the necessary alternatives for their offspring so they can gradually remember what it means to be human and become able to put factual knowledge into a human perspective.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4104
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: right here

Post by henry quirk » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:30 pm

"Indoctrinating teacher does not want the child to think about what he is being taught but to think what he is told to think.

Sure. When the teacher is instructing the younglings in longhand, I'm pretty sure that teacher doesn't wanna go into the history of writing, or why we use cursive. that teacher just wants the younglings to 'learn'.

#

"At the age of twelve a child has a developed moral capability to think for himself."

HA! At twelve is when a kid most desperately needs to be told what to think, by an adult.

#

"In the case of religious education there is training the child to attend a church or mosque and recite prayers and hymns and so on. Indoctrination occurs not by practicing those religious rituals but by identifying with the doctrine to the exclusion of any possibility of doubt."

I attended Catholic elementary and high schools. No body beat me up with a dogma stick. Questions were encouraged.

Impenitent
Posts: 2169
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re:

Post by Impenitent » Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:13 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:30 pm


I attended Catholic elementary and high schools. No body beat me up with a dogma stick. ...
of course not, the nuns used rulers...

-Imp

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4104
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
Location: right here

yeah, they did...trust me: i deserved every whack i got

Post by henry quirk » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:39 am

.

Belinda
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re:

Post by Belinda » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:56 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:30 pm
"Indoctrinating teacher does not want the child to think about what he is being taught but to think what he is told to think.

Sure. When the teacher is instructing the younglings in longhand, I'm pretty sure that teacher doesn't wanna go into the history of writing, or why we use cursive. that teacher just wants the younglings to 'learn'.

#

"At the age of twelve a child has a developed moral capability to think for himself."

HA! At twelve is when a kid most desperately needs to be told what to think, by an adult.

#

"In the case of religious education there is training the child to attend a church or mosque and recite prayers and hymns and so on. Indoctrination occurs not by practicing those religious rituals but by identifying with the doctrine to the exclusion of any possibility of doubt."

I attended Catholic elementary and high schools. No body beat me up with a dogma stick. Questions were encouraged.
Teaching writing is training a skill and is not education as teaching interpretation, critical judgement, and moral maturity are education.


At age twelve the child needs to be told by a trusted adult what to think when time is limited . When there is time, as in a schoolroom, the child of twelve benefits from free, open, and informed debate with his peers. I have visited RC schools and have found the atmosphere friendly and disciplined as regards both teachers and pupils. I have had Catholic friends who were easy going, friendly, and thoughtful and I presumed that RC practice was good despite the authoritarian doctrine.

The more subtle and effective method of indoctrinating is keeping the child in ignorance of alternatives, or quietly disparaging alternatives. The very fact that there are what in the UK are called "faith" schools is an example of subtle indoctrination.

Impenitent
Posts: 2169
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Impenitent » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:10 pm

teaching someone how to think is far more dangerous than teaching what to think...

-Imp

Belinda
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Belinda » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:12 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:10 pm
teaching someone how to think is far more dangerous than teaching what to think...

-Imp
Life and freedom are more dangerous than not going out. Are you averse to risk?

Impenitent
Posts: 2169
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 2:04 pm

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Impenitent » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:17 pm

Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:12 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:10 pm
teaching someone how to think is far more dangerous than teaching what to think...

-Imp
Life and freedom are more dangerous than not going out. Are you averse to risk?
freedom? far too risky for the secular state to allow religious thought...

-Imp

Belinda
Posts: 2374
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Belinda » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:46 pm

Impenitent wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:17 pm
Belinda wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:12 pm
Impenitent wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:10 pm
teaching someone how to think is far more dangerous than teaching what to think...

-Imp
Life and freedom are more dangerous than not going out. Are you averse to risk?
freedom? far too risky for the secular state to allow religious thought...

-Imp
Ah, then you are averse to risk.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests