Mind is eternal

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:47 pm

bahman wrote:
One mind however which is the basic element of reality cannot have knowledge
The very first life form which was very primitive indeed had the knowledge to reproduce from which all subsequent life is descended
So a mind could easily acquire its own knowledge and create others of greater complexity just like bacteria did four billion years ago

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:52 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 3:47 pm
bahman wrote:
One mind however which is the basic element of reality cannot have knowledge
The very first life form which was very primitive indeed had the knowledge to reproduce from which all subsequent life is descended
So a mind could easily acquire its own knowledge and create others of greater complexity just like bacteria did four billion years ago
I am wondering that what would be that knowledge. I shouldn't have structure though.

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:11 pm

bahman wrote:
I am wondering that what would be that knowledge. I shouldnt have structure though
That which is acquired through sense experience or self awareness or logical deduction
But it might not initially be knowledge but information [ which cannot be understood ]

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:29 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:11 pm
bahman wrote:
I am wondering that what would be that knowledge. I shouldnt have structure though
That which is acquired through sense experience or self awareness or logical deduction
But it might not initially be knowledge but information [ which cannot be understood ]
Mind has ability to experience. To me a being is a set of interacting minds. The knowledge is structured within physical body. I cannot understand how a thing which has no structure can hold information.

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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by -1- » Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:17 pm

bahman wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:36 pm
You almost got it all. Congratulation. The only thing that you missed is that a being is made of many minds so it could have knowledge. One mind however, which is the basic element of reality cannot have knowledge.
A being is made of many minds? You need to show that first. And you have to describe and show the operating system that coordinates the two or more minds. Otherwise it is an unknown, and you can't use such unknowns. You could say that the being has two bowling balls, and one bowling ball cannot have knowledge. Or you could say that the being has two or more lives lived at the same time, and one can't have knowledge.

These are helpful hypotheses, but unfortunately without any support. You need to support or evidence your hypotheses before they can get accepted.

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm

-1- wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 7:17 pm
bahman wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:36 pm
You almost got it all. Congratulation. The only thing that you missed is that a being is made of many minds so it could have knowledge. One mind however, which is the basic element of reality cannot have knowledge.
A being is made of many minds? You need to show that first. And you have to describe and show the operating system that coordinates the two or more minds. Otherwise it is an unknown, and you can't use such unknowns. You could say that the being has two bowling balls, and one bowling ball cannot have knowledge. Or you could say that the being has two or more lives lived at the same time, and one can't have knowledge.

These are helpful hypotheses, but unfortunately without any support. You need to support or evidence your hypotheses before they can get accepted.
Let's see if we can agree on the definition of mind and the fact that there is more than one mind. Here I have a thread which discuss these. Let me know and we can start from there after.

Logik
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:42 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm
Let's see if we can agree on the definition of mind and the fact that there is more than one mind. Here I have a thread which discuss these. Let me know and we can start from there after.
This philosophical inclination to start with the hardest problem first... I don't understand it.
If you can't agree on the definition of 'eternal' then nothing eternal can exists.

If I am not mistaken "eternal" means the same thing as "boundless/infinite temporal phenomenon". Yeah?
The universe is a finite temporal phenomenon (beginning: big bang, ending: heat death).

So anything 'eternal' transcends this thing we call 'the universe' and this thing we call '2nd law of thermodynamics'.

Why do you insist on inventing gods?

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:24 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:42 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm
Let's see if we can agree on the definition of mind and the fact that there is more than one mind. Here I have a thread which discuss these. Let me know and we can start from there after.
This philosophical inclination to start with the hardest problem first... I don't understand it.
If you can't agree on the definition of 'eternal' then nothing eternal can exists.
Ok, let's see.
Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:42 pm
If I am not mistaken "eternal" means the same thing as "boundless/infinite temporal phenomenon". Yeah?
The universe is a finite temporal phenomenon (beginning: big bang, ending: heat death).
We have two options here: (1) The universe has a beginning and (2) The universe has no beginning. The heat death is not really a problem.

1) The existence of a beginning only put a limit on what a mind can experience. Time however cannot have a beginning. I have an argument for that: Time is the fundamental variable of any dynamical theory. Time is needed to be an emergent property of the theory, the Big Bang theory, as well. Time however cannot be a fundamental variable and emergent property at the same time. Therefore time does not have any beginning.

2) There is no problem in this case.
Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:42 pm
So anything 'eternal' transcends this thing we call 'the universe' and this thing we call '2nd law of thermodynamics'.

Why do you insist on inventing gods?
Because minds are real. There is no way to logically avoid them.

Logik
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:32 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:24 pm
Because minds are real. There is no way to logically avoid them.
Minds came after big bang.

Even if Big Bang is not 'the beginning' you can't escape temporal ordering if you adhere to the current conception of causality.

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:51 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:32 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:24 pm
Because minds are real. There is no way to logically avoid them.
Minds came after big bang.
Mind simply exists whether there is a universe or not.
Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:32 pm
Even if Big Bang is not 'the beginning' you can't escape temporal ordering if you adhere to the current conception of causality.
Yes.

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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by -1- » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:46 pm

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm
Let's see if we can agree on the definition of mind and the fact that there is more than one mind. Here I have a thread which discuss these. Let me know and we can start from there after.
Yes, I know you have a thread about it. I saw the title of it, and I stayed away. It violates my tolerance for BS factor. Please don't make me read it. I beg you.

But your ontological argument never talked about minds. A proof must contain all pertinent elements to make it stick. If you ESSENTIALLY need a theory accepted on multiple minds in your argument, you must include that parametric demand in the ontological argument. Which you did not. It is incomplete then, which is also not a good thing for a proof.

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:53 pm

-1- wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:46 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm
Let's see if we can agree on the definition of mind and the fact that there is more than one mind. Here I have a thread which discuss these. Let me know and we can start from there after.
Yes, I know you have a thread about it. I saw the title of it, and I stayed away. It violates my tolerance for BS factor. Please don't make me read it. I beg you.
Come on. It is not going to kill you. :mrgreen: Just read OP and let me know your opinion.

Or we can agree that there are many minds and start from there. We also need to agree to definition of mind, mind being essence of any being with the ability to experience, decide and cause.

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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by -1- » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:31 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:53 pm
-1- wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:46 pm
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:26 pm
Let's see if we can agree on the definition of mind and the fact that there is more than one mind. Here I have a thread which discuss these. Let me know and we can start from there after.
Yes, I know you have a thread about it. I saw the title of it, and I stayed away. It violates my tolerance for BS factor. Please don't make me read it. I beg you.
Come on. It is not going to kill you. :mrgreen: Just read OP and let me know your opinion.

Or we can agree that there are many minds and start from there. We also need to agree to definition of mind, mind being essence of any being with the ability to experience, decide and cause.
Hehe. You are not pulling me into this. Sorry. :D

surreptitious57
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by surreptitious57 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:13 am

bahman wrote:
To me a being is a set of interacting minds
I cannot understand how a thing which has no structure can hold information
A being only requires one mind not many [ do you know of anything that exists that actually has more than one mind ]
A thing with no structure has no physicality so therefore cannot be classed as a thing because it cannot exist in reality

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:01 pm

-1- wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:31 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:53 pm
-1- wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 8:46 pm


Yes, I know you have a thread about it. I saw the title of it, and I stayed away. It violates my tolerance for BS factor. Please don't make me read it. I beg you.
Come on. It is not going to kill you. :mrgreen: Just read OP and let me know your opinion.

Or we can agree that there are many minds and start from there. We also need to agree to definition of mind, mind being essence of any being with the ability to experience, decide and cause.
Hehe. You are not pulling me into this. Sorry. :D
Ok, as you wish.

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