There cannot be any emergence

How does science work? And what's all this about quantum mechanics?

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Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:38 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:32 pm
That is exactly how the science works. I change the direction of gravity and system behaved the same. This means that the gravity has negligible effect.
You changed the "direction" of gravity? :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are committing exactly the same error in reasoning as before. You have put a "box" around Earth and called it a closed system. You accounted for Eearth's gravity and left everything else out.

Not to mention you have failed to account for what changes of behaviour you deem "negligible" vs "significant".
How about the distinction between what is "change" and what isn't?

Could it be that the behaviour of the system did change, but your taste buds were unable to detect it because they are too imprecise?

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:45 pm

Logik wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:38 pm
bahman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:32 pm
That is exactly how the science works. I change the direction of gravity and system behaved the same. This means that the gravity has negligible effect.
You changed the "direction" of gravity? :lol: :lol: :lol:

You are committing exactly the same error in reasoning as before. You have put a "box" around Earth and called it a closed system. You accounted for Eearth's gravity and left everything else out.
No. I consider everything when I asked you to taste the salt when you are upside down. The direction of gravity changes respect to you but the taste of salt stay the same.

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:46 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:45 pm
No. I consider everything when I asked you to taste the salt when you are upside down. The direction of gravity changes respect to you but the taste of salt stay the same.
I disagree with your approach. Just turn it off - much easier!

Then we don't have to deal with ambiguity...

Maybe the direction of gravity is immaterial? Maybe the mere presence mattes?

Logik
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Logik » Sun Jan 06, 2019 4:53 pm

Seems my holistic intuition paid out dividends.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... ce/273927/
During a call-in show on the International Space Station, astronaut Chris Hadfield was asked whether food tastes the same in space. "At first, no, and it's not because of the food," he replies. Rather, the culprit is gravity -- or, more accurately, its absence. Without gravity to pull fluids down, astronauts' sinuses get clogged up and they can't really taste much of anything.
When you focus on the irreducible parts you develop tunnel vision. That's how you miss the elephant in the room...

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:51 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 2:19 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:20 am
bahman wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:48 pm

Then show me that how emergence is possible unless we are dealing with a magic. Where does magic exactly happen?
Here one one example you can verify the process of emergence yourself.

The Einstein Mask in 3D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORoTCBrCKIQ

Note how a 3D convex shape of Einstein slowly emerges as the image turns and is set upon your eyes.
The truth is the 3D convex Einstein image is ACTUALLY a concave image but you mind insist it is a convex 3D shape.
This is emergence in process to present you a 'reality' of a convex shape.

If nobody told you the underlying shape is concave, you will never know and take it based on empirical evidence you are seeing a real convex 3D Einstein face.
This is proof of emergence with the brain/mind as a co-participant.

The above principle is applicable to every aspect of what you have accepted as reality-as-it-is which is an emergent.

Note what humans feel as solid objects are merely emergence and are 'deception' by the brain/mind to make humans see and feel certain objects as solid things. The fact is, if the electrons of the object stop spinning there will be no solid object to be felt.
Thus a near atomic size virus will not see emerging solid objects like humans do.

If you reflect deeper based on the above principles of emergence, you will realize the whole of reality-as-it-is is the same as the above examples above and as such reality-as-it-is is an emergence in tandem with the human conditions.

Therefore, emergence exists which contra your OP.
That is a interesting example but you didn't explain that how and where this magic happens? I would be happy to stick with taste of salt.
Interesting, yes, but do you agree the Einstein Mask Illusion demonstrates 'emergence' [of at least some sort] contributed by the brain/mind?
Yes/No?

Magic? don't bring in a red-herring and straw man.

Einstein Mask Illusion is a direct experience of 'emergence'!

The emergence of the taste of salt arises from the same principle as the emergence of the 'convex' shape of Einstein in your mind.

The taste of salt arises as an emergence within the following;
  • Human conditions [taste buds, taste sensory circuit] + combined Sodium & Chlorine molecules within the Universe = emergence of salt taste.
The above demonstrate there is the emergence of the taste of salt within the above equation.

Note the following emergence if the condition changes, e.g.
  • Human conditions [taste buds, taste sensory circuit + taste-synaesthesia] + combined Sodium & Chlorine molecules within the Universe = triggering of audio circuit + emergence of musical sounds. :shock:
I presume you understand 'synaesthesia.' The critical element here is still the human conditions.

So the final stance is;
  • Human conditions [evolved brain and mind] + everything = emergence of reality-as-it-is.
Thus emergence arises - contra your OP.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:11 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:51 am
Interesting, yes, but do you agree the Einstein Mask Illusion demonstrates 'emergence' [of at least some sort] contributed by the brain/mind?
Yes/No?
I don't equate mind with brain. Einstein mask illusion is one of the way that you could trick the mind. One of thousands tricks out there. You can trick mind. My point is however is that how we have specific experience when there is a stimuli like salt.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:51 am
Magic? don't bring in a red-herring and straw man.

Einstein Mask Illusion is a direct experience of 'emergence'!

The emergence of the taste of salt arises from the same principle as the emergence of the 'convex' shape of Einstein in your mind.

The taste of salt arises as an emergence within the following;
  • Human conditions [taste buds, taste sensory circuit] + combined Sodium & Chlorine molecules within the Universe = emergence of salt taste.
The above demonstrate there is the emergence of the taste of salt within the above equation.

Note the following emergence if the condition changes, e.g.
  • Human conditions [taste buds, taste sensory circuit + taste-synaesthesia] + combined Sodium & Chlorine molecules within the Universe = triggering of audio circuit + emergence of musical sounds. :shock:
I presume you understand 'synaesthesia.' The critical element here is still the human conditions.

So the final stance is;
  • Human conditions [evolved brain and mind] + everything = emergence of reality-as-it-is.
Thus emergence arises - contra your OP.
Yes, it is like magic. We all know the model for taste system and we also know that human can be explained in term of a wave. There is a difference between the wave when the salt is introduced to the system but the wave is just related the chance of finding the particles in the system. This means that at the end we are dealing with two different configurations of the particles one without salt and no experience of salt and another with salt and experience of salt. Therefore, the taste seems to be related to configuration of particles in the brain. But how the taste can give rise because of configuration if you think about it?

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:14 am

bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:11 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:51 am
Interesting, yes, but do you agree the Einstein Mask Illusion demonstrates 'emergence' [of at least some sort] contributed by the brain/mind?
Yes/No?
I don't equate mind with brain. Einstein mask illusion is one of the way that you could trick the mind. One of thousands tricks out there. You can trick mind. My point is however is that how we have specific experience when there is a stimuli like salt.
You got it the wrong way.
It is the brain/mind at the subconscious level that tricks and deceives you at the conscious level.
Note this happens only with faces because recognition of faces is critical to facilitate survival. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_perception
Note the tendency to see faces everywhere;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
As such, faces are emergence conditioned upon then humans brain/mind and human evolution.

It is the same with saltiness [emergence] when the salt taste buds are triggered by a combination of NaCL. It is the same with the sight of salt [emergence] in various forms.
Note my example below re Synaesthesia where if the taste buds are misconnected to the auditory system, then one will hear sound or music when salt molecules touch the salt taste buds.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:51 am
Magic? don't bring in a red-herring and straw man.

Einstein Mask Illusion is a direct experience of 'emergence'!

The emergence of the taste of salt arises from the same principle as the emergence of the 'convex' shape of Einstein in your mind.

The taste of salt arises as an emergence within the following;
  • Human conditions [taste buds, taste sensory circuit] + combined Sodium & Chlorine molecules within the Universe = emergence of salt taste.
The above demonstrate there is the emergence of the taste of salt within the above equation.

Note the following emergence if the condition changes, e.g.
  • Human conditions [taste buds, taste sensory circuit + taste-synaesthesia] + combined Sodium & Chlorine molecules within the Universe = triggering of audio circuit + emergence of musical sounds. :shock:
I presume you understand 'synaesthesia.' The critical element here is still the human conditions.

So the final stance is;
  • Human conditions [evolved brain and mind] + everything = emergence of reality-as-it-is.
Thus emergence arises - contra your OP.
Yes, it is like magic. We all know the model for taste system and we also know that human can be explained in term of a wave. There is a difference between the wave when the salt is introduced to the system but the wave is just related the chance of finding the particles in the system. This means that at the end we are dealing with two different configurations of the particles one without salt and no experience of salt and another with salt and experience of salt. Therefore, the taste seems to be related to configuration of particles in the brain. But how the taste can give rise because of configuration if you think about it?
You missed the critical points above.

If you think it is magic [involving some sort of deliberation and manipulation] then you are ignorant and wrong since what happened is natural in the case of the emergence of the 3D concave mask.

How the taste can give rise to saltiness is because all humans has the inherent DNA to manifest the salt taste buds and salt taste sensors and interpretation in the brain/mind,i.e. a generic neural configuration in the brain.
The control is the example of synaesthesia where if there is something wrong with the sensors, then tasting salt could give rise to the emergence sounds or seeing colors.

As such there is no NaCL, salt, saltiness without the brain/mind enabling their emergences as what-they-are.

Therefore emergence exists - contra your OP.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:53 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:14 am
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:11 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:51 am
Interesting, yes, but do you agree the Einstein Mask Illusion demonstrates 'emergence' [of at least some sort] contributed by the brain/mind?
Yes/No?
I don't equate mind with brain. Einstein mask illusion is one of the way that you could trick the mind. One of thousands tricks out there. You can trick mind. My point is however is that how we have specific experience when there is a stimuli like salt.
You got it the wrong way.
It is the brain/mind at the subconscious level that tricks and deceives you at the conscious level.
Note this happens only with faces because recognition of faces is critical to facilitate survival. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Face_perception
Note the tendency to see faces everywhere;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia
As such, faces are emergence conditioned upon then humans brain/mind and human evolution.

It is the same with saltiness [emergence] when the salt taste buds are triggered by a combination of NaCL. It is the same with the sight of salt [emergence] in various forms.
Note my example below re Synaesthesia where if the taste buds are misconnected to the auditory system, then one will hear sound or music when salt molecules touch the salt taste buds.

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:51 am
Magic? don't bring in a red-herring and straw man.

Einstein Mask Illusion is a direct experience of 'emergence'!

The emergence of the taste of salt arises from the same principle as the emergence of the 'convex' shape of Einstein in your mind.

The taste of salt arises as an emergence within the following;
  • Human conditions [taste buds, taste sensory circuit] + combined Sodium & Chlorine molecules within the Universe = emergence of salt taste.
The above demonstrate there is the emergence of the taste of salt within the above equation.

Note the following emergence if the condition changes, e.g.
  • Human conditions [taste buds, taste sensory circuit + taste-synaesthesia] + combined Sodium & Chlorine molecules within the Universe = triggering of audio circuit + emergence of musical sounds. :shock:
I presume you understand 'synaesthesia.' The critical element here is still the human conditions.

So the final stance is;
  • Human conditions [evolved brain and mind] + everything = emergence of reality-as-it-is.
Thus emergence arises - contra your OP.
Yes, it is like magic. We all know the model for taste system and we also know that human can be explained in term of a wave. There is a difference between the wave when the salt is introduced to the system but the wave is just related the chance of finding the particles in the system. This means that at the end we are dealing with two different configurations of the particles one without salt and no experience of salt and another with salt and experience of salt. Therefore, the taste seems to be related to configuration of particles in the brain. But how the taste can give rise because of configuration if you think about it?
You missed the critical points above.

If you think it is magic [involving some sort of deliberation and manipulation] then you are ignorant and wrong since what happened is natural in the case of the emergence of the 3D concave mask.

How the taste can give rise to saltiness is because all humans has the inherent DNA to manifest the salt taste buds and salt taste sensors and interpretation in the brain/mind,i.e. a generic neural configuration in the brain.
The control is the example of synaesthesia where if there is something wrong with the sensors, then tasting salt could give rise to the emergence sounds or seeing colors.

As such there is no NaCL, salt, saltiness without the brain/mind enabling their emergences as what-they-are.

Therefore emergence exists - contra your OP.
You still didn't explain how emergence really happen. We are all familiar with the models of our sensory system. How could we have a single experience because our brains are structured? To me that is impossible as I argued. To me consciousness is simply the ability of mind.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:29 am

bahman wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:53 pm
You missed the critical points above.

If you think it is magic [involving some sort of deliberation and manipulation] then you are ignorant and wrong since what happened is natural in the case of the emergence of the 3D concave mask.

How the taste can give rise to saltiness is because all humans has the inherent DNA to manifest the salt taste buds and salt taste sensors and interpretation in the brain/mind,i.e. a generic neural configuration in the brain.
The control is the example of synaesthesia where if there is something wrong with the sensors, then tasting salt could give rise to the emergence sounds or seeing colors.

As such there is no NaCL, salt, saltiness without the brain/mind enabling their emergences as what-they-are.

Therefore emergence exists - contra your OP.
You still didn't explain how emergence really happen. We are all familiar with the models of our sensory system.
How could we have a single experience because our brains are structured?
To me that is impossible as I argued. To me consciousness is simply the ability of mind.
Re BOLD, you are asking a very weird question.

Nah, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain/mind emerging from the combination of the human body with the Universe starting from the fact that the materials in human body were from star dusts.

The fact is we have experiences of what emerges from our brain/mind and body.
For example when our emotional circuit [say anger] is triggered, there are emergence of wave vibrations and emergence of anger when these emerged vibrations get in contact with waking consciousness.
As such why is the emergence of anger not possible?

The above principle of emergence applies to all human mental and physical activities whether experienced consciously, in dreams or unconsciously.

I believed the above answer your question, thus emergence exists and contra your OP.
It would appear you are ignorant of what is going on within reality and human beings that compelled you to believe there cannot be an emergence.

The critical point is emergence of reality-as-it-is is conditioned upon the human conditions, thus enable the individual to modulate the associated sufferings and pains, thus contribute the progress of humanity. If otherwise you will be forever lost and drift rudderlessly.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:06 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:29 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:53 pm
You missed the critical points above.

If you think it is magic [involving some sort of deliberation and manipulation] then you are ignorant and wrong since what happened is natural in the case of the emergence of the 3D concave mask.

How the taste can give rise to saltiness is because all humans has the inherent DNA to manifest the salt taste buds and salt taste sensors and interpretation in the brain/mind,i.e. a generic neural configuration in the brain.
The control is the example of synaesthesia where if there is something wrong with the sensors, then tasting salt could give rise to the emergence sounds or seeing colors.

As such there is no NaCL, salt, saltiness without the brain/mind enabling their emergences as what-they-are.

Therefore emergence exists - contra your OP.
You still didn't explain how emergence really happen. We are all familiar with the models of our sensory system.
How could we have a single experience because our brains are structured?
To me that is impossible as I argued. To me consciousness is simply the ability of mind.
Re BOLD, you are asking a very weird question.

Nah, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain/mind emerging from the combination of the human body with the Universe starting from the fact that the materials in human body were from star dusts.

The fact is we have experiences of what emerges from our brain/mind and body.
For example when our emotional circuit [say anger] is triggered, there are emergence of wave vibrations and emergence of anger when these emerged vibrations get in contact with waking consciousness.
As such why is the emergence of anger not possible?

The above principle of emergence applies to all human mental and physical activities whether experienced consciously, in dreams or unconsciously.

I believed the above answer your question, thus emergence exists and contra your OP.
It would appear you are ignorant of what is going on within reality and human beings that compelled you to believe there cannot be an emergence.

The critical point is emergence of reality-as-it-is is conditioned upon the human conditions, thus enable the individual to modulate the associated sufferings and pains, thus contribute the progress of humanity. If otherwise you will be forever lost and drift rudderlessly.
The bold is not a weird question. It is very important question. It is related to hard problem of consciousness. I don't think that you have an answer for that since nobody knows the answer yet, if there is any answer. Until then my argument stands.

Veritas Aequitas
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Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 am

bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:06 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:29 am
bahman wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:53 pm

You still didn't explain how emergence really happen. We are all familiar with the models of our sensory system.
How could we have a single experience because our brains are structured?
To me that is impossible as I argued. To me consciousness is simply the ability of mind.
Re BOLD, you are asking a very weird question.

Nah, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain/mind emerging from the combination of the human body with the Universe starting from the fact that the materials in human body were from star dusts.

The fact is we have experiences of what emerges from our brain/mind and body.
For example when our emotional circuit [say anger] is triggered, there are emergence of wave vibrations and emergence of anger when these emerged vibrations get in contact with waking consciousness.
As such why is the emergence of anger not possible?

The above principle of emergence applies to all human mental and physical activities whether experienced consciously, in dreams or unconsciously.

I believed the above answer your question, thus emergence exists and contra your OP.
It would appear you are ignorant of what is going on within reality and human beings that compelled you to believe there cannot be an emergence.

The critical point is emergence of reality-as-it-is is conditioned upon the human conditions, thus enable the individual to modulate the associated sufferings and pains, thus contribute the progress of humanity. If otherwise you will be forever lost and drift rudderlessly.
The bold is not a weird question. It is very important question. It is related to hard problem of consciousness. I don't think that you have an answer for that since nobody knows the answer yet, if there is any answer. Until then my argument stands.
You are just being shifty.
There is no relation between "no emergence" and not knowing the hard problem of consciousness.

Note we know the existence of consciousness, we experience consciousness. This is the same as we know the existence of emergence thus we experience those emergent things.

Btw, show me any links where scientists or researchers are comparing the hard problem of consciousness as the same with the hard problem of emergence?

To me, the assertion 'There cannot be any emergence' is not even tenable as a hypothesis.

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bahman
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Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by bahman » Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:14 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:06 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:29 am

Re BOLD, you are asking a very weird question.

Nah, consciousness is an emergent property of the brain/mind emerging from the combination of the human body with the Universe starting from the fact that the materials in human body were from star dusts.

The fact is we have experiences of what emerges from our brain/mind and body.
For example when our emotional circuit [say anger] is triggered, there are emergence of wave vibrations and emergence of anger when these emerged vibrations get in contact with waking consciousness.
As such why is the emergence of anger not possible?

The above principle of emergence applies to all human mental and physical activities whether experienced consciously, in dreams or unconsciously.

I believed the above answer your question, thus emergence exists and contra your OP.
It would appear you are ignorant of what is going on within reality and human beings that compelled you to believe there cannot be an emergence.

The critical point is emergence of reality-as-it-is is conditioned upon the human conditions, thus enable the individual to modulate the associated sufferings and pains, thus contribute the progress of humanity. If otherwise you will be forever lost and drift rudderlessly.
The bold is not a weird question. It is very important question. It is related to hard problem of consciousness. I don't think that you have an answer for that since nobody knows the answer yet, if there is any answer. Until then my argument stands.
You are just being shifty.
There is no relation between "no emergence" and not knowing the hard problem of consciousness.
No, I was not shifty. There is no solution to problem of consciousness if there is no emergence. Consciousness in materialism must emerge.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 am
Note we know the existence of consciousness, we experience consciousness. This is the same as we know the existence of emergence thus we experience those emergent things.
As I mentioned, consciousness is ability of mind.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 am
Btw, show me any links where scientists or researchers are comparing the hard problem of consciousness as the same with the hard problem of emergence?
Physicist are confused. They are looking for theory of everything at the same time try to explain some phenomena like consciousness as emergence. My argument is one argument against emergence. You are welcome to attack it. For hard problem of consciousness please read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_prob ... sciousness
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 am
To me, the assertion 'There cannot be any emergence' is not even tenable as a hypothesis.
That is the conclusion.

Veritas Aequitas
Posts: 1742
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:41 am

Re: There cannot be any emergence

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:17 am

bahman wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:14 pm
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 am
bahman wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:06 pm

The bold is not a weird question. It is very important question. It is related to hard problem of consciousness. I don't think that you have an answer for that since nobody knows the answer yet, if there is any answer. Until then my argument stands.
You are just being shifty.
There is no relation between "no emergence" and not knowing the hard problem of consciousness.
No, I was not shifty. There is no solution to problem of consciousness if there is no emergence. Consciousness in materialism must emerge.
You got it wrong.
Note the generic formula for emergence I had presented earlier;

  • Human conditions [physical and mental] + ++ = emergence of reality-as-it-is.
thus example
Human conditions [physical and mental] + Na + Cl + ++ = emergence of NaCL + saltiness

Human conditions [physical and mental] + brain/mind/body + XXX = emergence of human consciousness

Note the hard problem of consciousness acknowledge the above formula, but its problem is understanding the exact and precise mechanics within the brain and body that result in the emergence of consciousness.

Therefore the hard problem of consciousness is no excuse for the existence of emergence.

Btw, there is a hard problem for everything, it is just that they are not as critical to find out the precise mechanics in the emergence of consciousness.
For example,
do you know precisely exactly how you feel hungry down to the neural and its quarks level.
do you [or theists] know precisely what is going on inside your[their] brain/mind when you [they] pine for God.


Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 am
Note we know the existence of consciousness, we experience consciousness. This is the same as we know the existence of emergence thus we experience those emergent things.
As I mentioned, consciousness is ability of mind.
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 am
Btw, show me any links where scientists or researchers are comparing the hard problem of consciousness as the same with the hard problem of emergence?
Physicist are confused. They are looking for theory of everything at the same time try to explain some phenomena like consciousness as emergence. My argument is one argument against emergence. You are welcome to attack it. For hard problem of consciousness please read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_prob ... sciousness
Veritas Aequitas wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:51 am
To me, the assertion 'There cannot be any emergence' is not even tenable as a hypothesis.
That is the conclusion.
I understand the hard problem of consciousness and as I had stated it is related to not knowing precisely how consciousness emerged. It is not an excuse to insist emergence do not exists.

Note 'emergence' as I had discussed it is not specifically the Physicists' subject.
Emergence in my case is related to reality-as-it-is based on philosophy-proper, i.e. epistemology.

Note for example, Physicists are interested in how marble-A when it knocked marble-B and caused of its movement forward in terms of Newton's Law and cause & effect.
However Hume deny the reality of the above and attributed the events to "emergence" from the philosophical perspective.Hume argued the event that is seeemingly cause & effect is actually due to customs, habits and constant conjunction, so, switching the fact to the psychological perspective, thus
  • Human conditions [physical and mental] + marbles A and B, movements, ++ = emergence of marble-B moving forward.
Therefore emergence exists so contra your OP.

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