The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Discussion of articles that appear in the magazine.

Moderators: AMod, iMod

Philosophy Now
Posts: 923
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:49 am

The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Philosophy Now » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:27 pm

Andrew Copson considers some ethical problems for secular education in a pluralistic world.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/129/The_Ethics_of_Education_in_the_Secular_State

Belinda
Posts: 2868
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Belinda » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:59 pm

Philosophy Now wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:27 pm
Andrew Copson considers some ethical problems for secular education in a pluralistic world.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/129/Th ... ular_State
Religiosity is always indoctrinated behaviour and attitude which has no place in any school. Education and indoctrination are mutually exclusive.

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4738
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

education & indoctrination are intertwined

Post by henry quirk » Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:57 pm

One of the purposes of 'education' is to indoctrinate.

Consider what we have have to work with: intelligent carnivorous apes, wild, ill-mannered. Each and every one comes into the world as nuthin' more than instinct and appetitie. From the start we indoctrinate, we 'civilize', these bright apes, instructing them to not shit & piss themseves, to use utensils, to use the 'inside' voice, to 'share', and on and on. The semi-civilized ape grows, attends school. Along with readin', writin', and 'rithmetic, our proxies (teachers) continue 'socializing' (indoctrinating) the the animal 'out' and the human 'in'. When we parents agree with that 'socialzing' we nod and go about our business. When we disagree, we kvetch sumthin' fierce.

So, you, B, don't object to indoctrination. No, you object to a particular strain of indoctrination.

Nick_A
Posts: 4000
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:48 am

Belinda wrote: “Education and indoctrination are mutually exclusive.” Yet in truth secularism and indoctrination are inseparable. That is why the article avoids the essential question of the purpose of education. Look what happened when Socrates questioned the meaning of piety. It would be the same for anyone questioning the essential purpose of education if given the chance to do so.

These would be good ideas to discuss but when even the controversial axiom: “The ends justify the means” is a no no since it questions the supremacy of the secular agenda, contemplating the essential human purpose of education could cause mass suicides amongst those indoctrinated into a secular progressive agenda. Can’t risk it.

But that’s life. You can’t fight city hall especially when it is infested with advocates of secular indoctrination.

Belinda
Posts: 2868
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: education & indoctrination are intertwined

Post by Belinda » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:07 pm

henry quirk wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 11:57 pm
One of the purposes of 'education' is to indoctrinate.

Consider what we have have to work with: intelligent carnivorous apes, wild, ill-mannered. Each and every one comes into the world as nuthin' more than instinct and appetitie. From the start we indoctrinate, we 'civilize', these bright apes, instructing them to not shit & piss themseves, to use utensils, to use the 'inside' voice, to 'share', and on and on. The semi-civilized ape grows, attends school. Along with readin', writin', and 'rithmetic, our proxies (teachers) continue 'socializing' (indoctrinating) the the animal 'out' and the human 'in'. When we parents agree with that 'socialzing' we nod and go about our business. When we disagree, we kvetch sumthin' fierce.

So, you, B, don't object to indoctrination. No, you object to a particular strain of indoctrination.
What you describe is not indoctrination but training for socialisation. It's true that society demands certain standards of socialisation. Schools as well as parents can and do train children for certain skills which include keeping themselves clean , and playing set games, and normal social activities.

Morality is a social skill that children must be trained for in their early years before their moral capability is mature. As the child matures they become capable of moral education involving their independent thinking.Moral training and education don't need to have anything to do with religious myths of any sort.

All religions have doctrine as a component and children being made into religionists are not expected to question doctrines. Religious doctrines insist that certain events are historically true when they are not historically true. This conflicts with education which aims to get children to think for themselves using the tools of proper research combined with scepticism(skepticism).

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: education & indoctrination are intertwined

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:18 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:07 pm
What you describe is not indoctrination but training for socialisation.
Potato potatoh.

If our respective conceptions of what society ought to be like differ significantly, your indoctrination is my socialization and vice versa.

Belinda
Posts: 2868
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: education & indoctrination are intertwined

Post by Belinda » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:29 pm

Logik wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:18 pm
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:07 pm
What you describe is not indoctrination but training for socialisation.
Potato potatoh.

If our respective conceptions of what society ought to be like differ significantly, your indoctrination is my socialization and vice versa.
Some cultures are intrinsically evil as they detract from freedoms of the individual. It's probably true that together with education my background and I guess your background too includes indoctrination into the belief that freedom for individuals is good as long as that freedom does not stop others being free. Education enables us to question that indoctrination and discuss it together openly.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: education & indoctrination are intertwined

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:33 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 12:29 pm
Some cultures are intrinsically evil as they detract from freedoms of the individual.
The same applies. If your conception of 'freedom' differs from (or worse - conflicts with) mine - your oppression is my liberation and vice versa.

Some would say that living in China is freedom from the social phenomenon of violence, and from inequality. Some people want that far more than they want civic liberties.

It's like balancing a pencil on its tip...

User avatar
henry quirk
Posts: 4738
Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm

was gonna respond, but logik is hittin' the nail squarely

Post by henry quirk » Wed Jan 09, 2019 3:46 pm

.

Belinda
Posts: 2868
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Belinda » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:16 pm

Logik and Henry Quirk, you are right as far as you go that " some cultures are evil" is subjective. However I had written "Education enables us to question that indoctrination and discuss it together openly".

Some societies and some religions don't permit free thought or free speech. One of the ways to limit free thought is to indoctrinate without subsequent questioning of one's own indoctrinated principles.Freedoms include the freedom to examine one's own, perhaps one's treasured, indoctrinated beliefs.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:35 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 4:16 pm
Some societies and some religions don't permit free thought or free speech. One of the ways to limit free thought is to indoctrinate without subsequent questioning of one's own indoctrinated principles.Freedoms include the freedom to examine one's own, perhaps one's treasured, indoctrinated beliefs.
Judaism requires and encourages doubt. And yet Judaism remains strong.
Even when the culture allows it - the psychological aversion to rip one's own beliefs apart remains. Because - human reasons.

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/dHQkDNM ... eak-points

And so just as much there is the freedom to examine one's most treasured beliefs, there is also the freedom to do it at your own pace and comfort. Which includes the pace of "never", or even the pace of "I examined and I've choosen to hold onto them"

That is the right to religious freedom.

Freedom means - freedom of choice. Freedom means free will.
Which includes the choice to remain ignorant, despite any evidence.

Belinda
Posts: 2868
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Belinda » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:22 pm

Logik wrote:
Freedom means - freedom of choice. Freedom means free will.
Which includes the choice to remain ignorant, despite any evidence.
Some are more free than others. Ignorance and freedom are mutually exclusive.Therefore ignorant people are less free, in that they have fewer choices.

Logik
Posts: 4048
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Logik » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:28 pm

Belinda wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:22 pm
Ignorance and freedom are mutually exclusive.
Are they? What is your conception of "freedom"? How would you measure whether one is more or less free?
Belinda wrote:
Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:22 pm
Therefore ignorant people are less free, in that they have fewer choices.
Ignorant people also have less responsibilities. Ignorant people suffer less from anxiety, depression and mental illness. People who have less choice are happier. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice

So it seems freedom and happiness are mutually exclusive?

Belinda
Posts: 2868
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:13 am

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Belinda » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:28 am

Logik wrote:
So it seems freedom and happiness are mutually exclusive?
Quite possibly. Freedom of choice can cause existential angst. When man is mature the responsiblity arises for man to think and choose without someone else telling him what to think is right and good.

Nick_A
Posts: 4000
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: The Ethics of Education in the Secular State

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jan 10, 2019 4:38 am

Simone Weil lamented that education had become no more than "an instrument manipulated by teachers for manufacturing more teachers, who in their turn will manufacture more teachers." rather than a guide to getting out of the cave.
The essential difference between secular and human education. Secular education uses facts to justify and perpetuate cave life through indoctrination. Human education receives facts with impartiality so as to provide the psychological incentive for getting out of the cave.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest