Indoctrinating hate finale

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Nick_A
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Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:10 pm

There are certain topics in modern philosophy which are taboo simply because they question the supremacy of Man. The belief is that given the correct opportunities and education, world peace will be the inevitable result. Admitting the fallen human condition which assures everything remains as is cannot be tolerated.

The Indoctrinating Hate thread was such a topic. It belongs in the same category as Secular Intolerance or the ramifications of humanity in Plato's Cave.

But anyone still believing that philosophy is really the expression of the love of wisdom is forced to consider why our species so quickly degenerates into hate so much so that it can lead to mass killings. Obviously there is more to it than indoctrination and opportunity

The only acceptable solution in modern times is the opinion that all this hate is the result of a lack of opportunities and faulty education. But you dear reader may be one who has concluded that the expression of hate is the normal expression of the human condition and seek to understand the reality of it rather than the PC explanations of it. Unfortunately such discussion in these times of PC must take place in private or within institutions dedicated to pursuing philosophy as the love of wisdom as opposed to the joy of argument.

I appreciated my short discussion with Judaka. It could have become meaningful. Now it is gone and we are back to the normal arguments. "Yo Momma Sucks" once again rules the day.

AMod
Posts: 166
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Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by AMod » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:15 pm

Actually Nick_A I got rid of your post as it was once again one of your American-centric politically driven diatribes, which I for one am becoming heartily sick of not least because of your refusal to engage with any point that highlights errors in your thinking with respect to Philosophy and those philosophers upon whom you base your ideas.

AMod.

Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Nick_A » Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:41 pm

Sheesh, now Greta has become a mod over here. Hate in general along with the concept that the ends justify the means is now considered an American phenomenon. So much for world history. You deny I'm involved with VA in a discussion in which we have different perspectives. Yes, I don't blindly surrender to those who ridicule the great ideas of the past as they try to point out the error of my ways. Philosophy as a human nutrient is too important to surrender its value to superficiality and ego trips.

Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Veritas Aequitas » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:39 am

AMod wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:15 pm
Actually Nick_A I got rid of your post as it was once again one of your American-centric politically driven diatribes, which I for one am becoming heartily sick of not least because of your refusal to engage with any point that highlights errors in your thinking with respect to Philosophy and those philosophers upon whom you base your ideas.

AMod.
I don't believe the concept of 'hate' is American-centric.
I am from the East and is well aware the consequences of 'hate' is so evident here in the East and everywhere all over the world.

There is the hatred for Trump in the US but the same concept of hate is expressed in other form of non-Trump issues around the world.

Outside the Left vs Right issue, I have provided evidences [verses] how the ideology of hate is so glaring within the ideology of Islam.
Hate is common everywhere but I believe the consequences of hate is more heavily weighted from the ideology of Islam in comparison to others sources of hate.

I am attempting to trace the origin of such terrible hate to existential psychology.

Judaka
Posts: 163
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Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Judaka » Wed Jan 09, 2019 6:41 am

AMod wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:15 pm
Actually Nick_A I got rid of your post as it was once again one of your American-centric politically driven diatribes, which I for one am becoming heartily sick of not least because of your refusal to engage with any point that highlights errors in your thinking with respect to Philosophy and those philosophers upon whom you base your ideas.

AMod.
I thought I was having a fairly balanced and reasonable discussion with Nick_A on that thread, aren't you saying that you deleted the thread because you can't convince Nick_A to change his mind about his beliefs?

Why would anyone on a philosophy forum approach people with the expectation that they'll change their beliefs when confronted with new information, perspectives or because contradictions are pointed out? Wouldn't you have points of view that people on this forum thought were flawed? In many or most of those cases, wouldn't you still be unwilling to accept their reasoning even if it were presented to you? I certainly would, I already know that people disagree with me and have reasons for doing so on almost every single position I hold.

Politics and philosophy are intertwined and provided Nick_A isn't personally attacking people for their beliefs or inciting hate but instead, expressing his views and engaging in discussion with those who agree/disagree in a civil manner as he was, what possible grounds could you have to delete that thread?

Walker
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Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Walker » Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:11 am

The grounds could be an ideological attachment or aversion.

Nick_A
Posts: 3766
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:36 pm

Judaka

“Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.”
― George Orwell, 1984


Welcome to the real world. I have found both through logical reasoning and personal experience that many of the ideas and concepts well known in the past are now frowned on for the sake of “modern” fears and escapism. As you’ve witnessed, this is intolerable. The sad part is that it prevents meaningful discussions like the one we were having.

It would be great if there were more like you who haven’t become modernized and still respect the ideal of an open rather than conditioned mind. Can you imagine how it would be if three or four seriously tried to understand why Socrates had to be killed. What does it say about the conditioned mind and is it still dominant today? But it cannot be done simply because it is no longer fashionable. Fragmentation and the descent into pragmatism rules the day leading to philosophy becoming an excuse for cursing out Trump or justifying abortions for example.

People open to contemplating Plato’s divided line are in a lessening minority and it is no longer considered a sign of intelligence to contemplate it with an open mind unburdened by negative preconceptions.

The mod knows that my interest is in verifying the ancient ideas which enable a person to acquire a universal rather than being limited to a conditioned perspective Plato described as if in a cave. They are intolerable for the believed supremacy of secularism so the mod’s reaction is as understandable as it is frightening. But for what it’s worth, I appreciated our discussion. If we remember that 2+2=4, we won’t be compelled to become a victim of the times.

Nick_A
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Nick_A » Wed Jan 09, 2019 5:47 pm

VA
I don't believe the concept of 'hate' is American-centric.
I am from the East and is well aware the consequences of 'hate' is so evident here in the East and everywhere all over the world.
If it is any consolation I agree. I am a mixture primarily of Russian and Armenian. I am well aware of the hatred during the Russian Revolution. Communist hatred killed part of my family because they failed to convert to communism. The Armenian genocide killed off other parts of my heritage so I know what the Turks were capable of. I appreciate your frustration. We just disagree as to the cause and the solution.

AMod
Posts: 166
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Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by AMod » Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:19 am

Nick_A wrote:...
The mod knows that my interest is in verifying the ancient ideas which enable a person to acquire a universal rather than being limited to a conditioned perspective Plato described as if in a cave. They are intolerable for the believed supremacy of secularism so the mod’s reaction is as understandable as it is frightening. But for what it’s worth, I appreciated our discussion. If we remember that 2+2=4, we won’t be compelled to become a victim of the times.
If you're trying to piss me off you are succeeding.

This mod observes that you use your ideas as a political tool to attack what you don't like in current America and as I've told you already if you want to do this then find an American politics forum. This mod also observes that you avoid any raised issue with your third-hand comprehension of Plato and his thoughts and, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, that Socrates committed suicide as he was not forced to die. At times he also wonders why you are so upset with how Americans have implemented the idea of freedom of religious belief by not allowing religious indoctrination in schools but in the main he doesn't care. What he does care about is you using the forum for politics rather than philosophy. As such he'll keep deleting posts of yours that do this up until he gets really bored or pissed off and decides to make his life easier.

AMod.

Frank N Stein
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Frank N Stein » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:08 am

Nick_A wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:41 pm
Sheesh, now Greta has become a mod over here. Hate in general along with the concept that the ends justify the means is now considered an American phenomenon. So much for world history. You deny I'm involved with VA in a discussion in which we have different perspectives. Yes, I don't blindly surrender to those who ridicule the great ideas of the past as they try to point out the error of my ways. Philosophy as a human nutrient is too important to surrender its value to superficiality and ego trips.
Is Greta the moderator?

Nick_A
Posts: 3766
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Nick_A » Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:50 am

AMod wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:19 am
Nick_A wrote:...
The mod knows that my interest is in verifying the ancient ideas which enable a person to acquire a universal rather than being limited to a conditioned perspective Plato described as if in a cave. They are intolerable for the believed supremacy of secularism so the mod’s reaction is as understandable as it is frightening. But for what it’s worth, I appreciated our discussion. If we remember that 2+2=4, we won’t be compelled to become a victim of the times.
If you're trying to piss me off you are succeeding.

This mod observes that you use your ideas as a political tool to attack what you don't like in current America and as I've told you already if you want to do this then find an American politics forum. This mod also observes that you avoid any raised issue with your third-hand comprehension of Plato and his thoughts and, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly, that Socrates committed suicide as he was not forced to die. At times he also wonders why you are so upset with how Americans have implemented the idea of freedom of religious belief by not allowing religious indoctrination in schools but in the main he doesn't care. What he does care about is you using the forum for politics rather than philosophy. As such he'll keep deleting posts of yours that do this up until he gets really bored or pissed off and decides to make his life easier.

AMod.
This is simply untrue. Take two of my typical thread for example. The first was called the ONE. It is an explanation of Plotinus basic idea as to the source of existence. The second was called the Cosmic Man which introduces Einstein’s conception of human evolution. Neither has anything to do with politics. Actually I rarely refer to politics.. I take the Simone Weil view of politics so why would I feature it? My interest is in furthering the complimentary relationship between science and the essence of religion as described by those like Einstein and Simone Weil.
"When a man joins a political party, he submissively adopts a mental attitude which he will express later on with words such as, ‘As a monarchist, as a Socialist, I think that …’ It is so comfortable! It amounts to having no thoughts at all. Nothing is more comfortable than not having to think." Simone Weil
I’m a chess player. I appreciate rational thought. Why would I want to argue as a conditioned automaton? I’ll leave that to the experts in indoctrination.

No, Socrates did not commit suicide. It is as foolish as saying Jesus committed suicide. They had to die as they did. It was their raison d'etre. As a secularist you are closed to as to why as is the norm for modern philosophy. Yet such questions should be on a philosophy forum rather than threatened.

The indoctrination of hate isn’t a political issue. It is a psychological problem that becomes a tool of education with the intent of acquiring political and cultural influence. Its dynamics should be discussed by anyone sincerely interested in philosophy as the love of wisdom and what prevents the majority of our species from being attracted to it.

AMod
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by AMod » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:40 am

Nick_A wrote:This is simply untrue. Take two of my typical thread for example. The first was called the ONE. It is an explanation of Plotinus basic idea as to the source of existence. The second was called the Cosmic Man which introduces Einstein’s conception of human evolution. Neither has anything to do with politics. ...
Have I deleted those posts?
Actually I rarely refer to politics..
No but you play at it here.
I take the Simone Weil view of politics so why would I feature it?
You'll have to ask yourself that.
My interest is in furthering the complimentary relationship between science and the essence of religion as described by those like Einstein and Simone Weil. ...
Then stick to it and lay off the American politics.
No, Socrates did not commit suicide. It is as foolish as saying Jesus committed suicide. ...
No it's not, Jesus(if he existed) was arrested, tried and executed and had no choice. Socrates could have chosen the route of his later compatriots and moved, hence he chose to die, suicide.

Still, all in all if you don't like the way I moderate you are free to punt your stuff elsewhere but presumably you already have and the reason why you are here is you've been banned from everywhere else.

I'll say it just one more time, if you allow your threads to devolve into politics without care, i.e. not notifying me to do something about it, then when I notice it the thread will go as I can't be bothered editing through threads to keep them tidy anymore.

AMod.

Frank N Stein
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Frank N Stein » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:47 am

It is a bit creepy the way mods also have regular accounts. Which of us is a secretly lurking mod? 8)

Nick_A
Posts: 3766
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:23 am

Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by Nick_A » Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:59 am

Amod
No it's not, Jesus(if he existed) was arrested, tried and executed and had no choice. Socrates could have chosen the route of his later compatriots and moved, hence he chose to die, suicide.
As a secularist, you are unaware of the tension between the concepts of principle and pragmatism as expressions of higher and lower values. Of course I would like to discuss the question with those like Walker and Judaka but how long would it last? Socrates died as he did as an expression of principle. What are the advantages of dying for principle and why not just escape as an expression of a pragmatic good? In Christianity the idea is expressed in the tension between the good of the Law and mercy. Contemplating how to balance them is a real philosophical question. At one time topics like this could have been discussed on Philosophy Forum but policy changes chased away those who would be open to depth of discussion. Why have it happen here?

Jesus died a conscious death for a particular purpose. Becoming open to the purpose requires a mindset and opening to a quality of knowledge that the negativity of secularism will oppose. So the bottom line is that topics like Indoctrinating Hate will be deleted since the idea is offensive to secularism unless it is restricted to Islamic terrorism for example. The psychology of hate as a dominant attribute of the fallen human condition is a no no.
Still, all in all if you don't like the way I moderate you are free to punt your stuff elsewhere but presumably you already have and the reason why you are here is you've been banned from everywhere else.
I haven’t been banned. The ideas I further have been banned. No one knows me. I am always polite on posts but the great ideas of the past I further are simply intolerable for secular mods. Questioning the glory and potential for secular Man must be rejected. they can only corrupt the youth of Athens
I'll say it just one more time, if you allow your threads to devolve into politics without care, i.e. not notifying me to do something about it, then when I notice it the thread will go as I can't be bothered editing through threads to keep them tidy anymore.
OK, delete all of Greta’s post where she condemns Trump. A person can post that it is a cloudy day and she’ll blame it on Trump. Why is this expression of American politics so wonderful and yet the Indoctrination of Hate must be deleted if it includes progressive secular education in America?

If Philosophy Now wants to encourage depth of philosophic discussion it must encourage it rather than deny it. Otherwise you’ll end up with “Yo Momma Sucks” as the ultimate philosophic conclusion,

AMod
Posts: 166
Joined: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:32 pm

Re: Indoctrinating hate finale

Post by AMod » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:17 am

I've yet to read what it is that you propose to teach people?

If you mean by 'secularist' this https://www.secularism.org.uk/what-is-secularism.html then I own that I have some sympathy, but not much, with the idea.

AMod.

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