Free Will vs Determinism

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henry quirk
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Sophie, I disagree.

Post by henry quirk » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:01 pm

.

Logik
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Re: "How to stop the atrocities?"

Post by Logik » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:04 am

Sophie.x wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:25 pm
Bruh free will cannot exist as you are completely influenced by the environment, the past and how your brain chemically works. With each ‘choice’ or action you make, you slightly change your brain, so that you could only ever do one thing, there is only the illusion of different choices.
I chose to lift my left hand. And I did it.
I chose to lift my right hand. And I did it.
I chose to lift both of my hands. And I did it.

Which one of those choices were illusionary?

Belinda
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Re: "How to stop the atrocities?"

Post by Belinda » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:06 pm

Logik wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:04 am
Sophie.x wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 6:25 pm
Bruh free will cannot exist as you are completely influenced by the environment, the past and how your brain chemically works. With each ‘choice’ or action you make, you slightly change your brain, so that you could only ever do one thing, there is only the illusion of different choices.
I chose to lift my left hand. And I did it.
I chose to lift my right hand. And I did it.
I chose to lift both of my hands. And I did it.

Which one of those choices were illusionary?
The feeling of choosing is located in a specific brain area. Choosing is an activity and is not ontically related to metaphysical Free Will.

Freedom, which is not the same as ontic Free Will , increases as knowledge and reason increase, however freedom is relative to circumstances and is not the same as Free Will.

Logik
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Re: "How to stop the atrocities?"

Post by Logik » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:12 pm

Belinda wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:06 pm
The feeling of choosing is located in a specific brain area. Choosing is an activity and is not ontically related to metaphysical Free Will.
Metaphysics is just a silly name for the language used to describe our experiences and concepts in relation to physics.
Belinda wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:06 pm
Freedom, which is not the same as ontic Free Will , increases as knowledge and reason increase, however freedom is relative to circumstances and is not the same as Free Will.
And ontology is beyond the realm of the empirical. Physics makes no ontological claims whatsoever. Physics is entirely about dynamic behaviour and interactions.

Suppose that you don't have free will right now. How would your experience of reality change if you were to suddenly obtain it?
Suppose that you have free will right now. How would your experience reality change if you were to lose it?

Without an answer to the above any and all conceptions of "Free Will" are just creative writing.

Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:45 pm

Logic wrote:
Suppose that you don't have free will right now. How would your experience of reality change if you were to suddenly obtain it?
Suppose that you have free will right now. How would your experience reality change if you were to lose it?
My experience of reality if I had Free Will would be such that:

a) I would blame myself and others for every failure and I'd believe that sins were actual sins with no mitigations.

b)I would become a right wing voter.

Logik
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Logik » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:56 pm

Belinda wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:45 pm
Logic wrote:
Suppose that you don't have free will right now. How would your experience of reality change if you were to suddenly obtain it?
Suppose that you have free will right now. How would your experience reality change if you were to lose it?
My experience of reality if I had Free Will would be such that:

a) I would blame myself and others for every failure and I'd believe that sins were actual sins with no mitigations.

b)I would become a right wing voter.

Logik
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Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:48 pm

Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Logik » Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:58 pm

Belinda wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:45 pm
Logic wrote:
Suppose that you don't have free will right now. How would your experience of reality change if you were to suddenly obtain it?
Suppose that you have free will right now. How would your experience reality change if you were to lose it?
My experience of reality if I had Free Will would be such that:

a) I would blame myself and others for every failure and I'd believe that sins were actual sins with no mitigations.

b)I would become a right wing voter.
Given your prior distinction between free will and free choice, you seem to have listed choices.

Nothing prevents you from doing any of the things you have listed above.

Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:57 am

Logik wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:58 pm
Belinda wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:45 pm
Logic wrote:
Suppose that you don't have free will right now. How would your experience of reality change if you were to suddenly obtain it?
Suppose that you have free will right now. How would your experience reality change if you were to lose it?
My experience of reality if I had Free Will would be such that:

a) I would blame myself and others for every failure and I'd believe that sins were actual sins with no mitigations.

b)I would become a right wing voter.
Given your prior distinction between free will and free choice, you seem to have listed choices.

Nothing prevents you from doing any of the things you have listed above.
My sense of fairness, the people with whom I identify, and my reason prevent me from being politically right wing and punitive. My significant others and my education caused me to make those choices. There is in me no tiny thin bit of Free Will with which I would want to change who I am and the choices I make.

Logik
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:53 am

Belinda wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:57 am
Logik wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:58 pm
Belinda wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 4:45 pm
Logic wrote:



My experience of reality if I had Free Will would be such that:

a) I would blame myself and others for every failure and I'd believe that sins were actual sins with no mitigations.

b)I would become a right wing voter.
Given your prior distinction between free will and free choice, you seem to have listed choices.

Nothing prevents you from doing any of the things you have listed above.
My sense of fairness, the people with whom I identify, and my reason prevent me from being politically right wing and punitive. My significant others and my education caused me to make those choices. There is in me no tiny thin bit of Free Will with which I would want to change who I am and the choices I make.
Ok. But... that is still your choice.

That you don’t want to vote for X instead of Y is just more choice.

The options are in front of you. So it seems to me you are exercising your “free will” just fine...

Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:02 pm

Logik, choosing is a common behaviour among animals that have cerebral cortices. Choosing is not an ontic category like Free Will is an ontic category.

It's true that as a human being I have more choices than for instance a mouse has. I have still more human choices if I have been taught to control my emotional reactivity by reasoning and compassion.

Logik
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:12 pm

Belinda wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:02 pm
Logik, choosing is a common behaviour among animals that have cerebral cortices. Choosing is not an ontic category like Free Will is an ontic category.
OK, but the line you have drawn to demarcate/delineate this "ontic category" is by discriminating based on behavior.

If a person behaves one way they are in category A.
If they behave another way they are in category B.

So if you were to choose to behave like a person from the other category then does that mean you have acquired 'Free Will'?

Is 'free will' a choice?

Belinda
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Belinda » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:35 pm

Logik wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:12 pm
Belinda wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:02 pm
Logik, choosing is a common behaviour among animals that have cerebral cortices. Choosing is not an ontic category like Free Will is an ontic category.
OK, but the line you have drawn to demarcate/delineate this "ontic category" is by discriminating based on behavior.

If a person behaves one way they are in category A.
If they behave another way they are in category B.

So if you were to choose to behave like a person from the other category then does that mean you have acquired 'Free Will'?

Is 'free will' a choice?
There is such a multiplicity of causes for any specified bit of behaviour that it's impossible to know all the causes let alone list them. As for all metaphysics it's impossible to prove either Free Will or determinism. I choose not to believe in Free Will for two reasons : a) I like science b) Free Will belief is against the ethics of mercy and pity.

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henry quirk
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i don't have a free will, i am a free will

Post by henry quirk » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:52 pm

c'mon, B, human choice (the capacity) is unique, and is at the core of 'free will'.

The mouse you mention chooses nuthin'. It's bio-automation. A human being, a person, an agent, a free will, pauses and considers, he weighs options and weaves scenarios of possible outcomes and benefits/costs. The free will has a conscious purpose, a deliberate intent.

All the automated processes, all the unconscious functions culminate in the supremely (self)conscious, (self)aware free will. 'I' stand atop all those bio-robotic mechanisms of meat and bone and blood. 'I' extend 'up' and 'out' from them. The organic machinery comprises me, but 'I' run the show.

Yeah, the mind can fool itself but it does not automatically follow that the mind is always fooling itself. My on-going, consistent experience of myself, and of myself in the world, leads me to conclude 'I' am not an illusion, 'I' have intent, 'I' choose, 'I' am self-responsible: 'I' am a free will. This, to me, is not a remarkable observation. It's old news, as old (and evident) as the crooked nose on my face.

That your own comparable experiences lead you to a different conclusion, well, I find that a more interesting problem than proving the reality of 'free will'.

#

"Free Will belief is against the ethics of mercy and pity."

One must choose to be merciful, to pity. Only a free will does that.

#

"I choose not to believe in Free Will"

'I choose to believe I don't choose'... :|
Last edited by henry quirk on Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Logik
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by Logik » Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:53 pm

Belinda wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:35 pm
There is such a multiplicity of causes for any specified bit of behaviour that it's impossible to know all the causes let alone list them. As for all metaphysics it's impossible to prove either Free Will or determinism. I choose not to believe in Free Will for two reasons : a) I like science b) Free Will belief is against the ethics of mercy and pity.
OK, but all ontic claims are metaphysical.

To argue that FreeWill is neither provable nor disprovable goes against the very principles of science.
Such conception of Free Will means that the notion has neither testable nor falsifiable practical consequences.

It's a meaningless conception.

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SpheresOfBalance
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Re: Free Will vs Determinism

Post by SpheresOfBalance » Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:38 pm

Freewill is contained within the framework of determinism.

The universe 'created' us, either wilfully or by chance and is yet another debate.

All inanimate objects found within the universe are 'completely' bound by determinism. One physical force acts upon another. One asteroid cannot dodge another as it approaches collision. Only the forces (physics) that be, determine.

Animate life on the other hand is the supreme 'creation,' whether wilfully or by chance is yet another debate.

Life can dodge something, that's why they call the game dodge ball!

Even though life is the child of an inanimate universe, it is it's crowning achievement, determined in existence, but wilful within it's bounds. I can either choose to be hit by the ball or dodge it, it's my choice alone.

Only human convention makes it seem as though we have no choice.

I submit that clones, (parrots) have much less free will than those that swim up-stream!

And that those that deny their free will, no matter how slight it's measure, do so to shirk their responsibility for anything and everything they choose; that they deny, because it suits their selfish purpose.

Don't be fooled, free will is mostly bound by ignorance, (the difference between life species), the lack of knowledge, wisdom; those that don't fully understand the nature of the human concept known as PHILOSOPHY!

Knowledge is power, if for no other reason than to rule ones own particular version of their world, amidst all those that: 'got it all wrong!'

And so contained within what's above, I give you free will! As small or large as it is, in your particular version of your world, framed within the bounds of the deterministic universe!

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