Mind is eternal

Is the mind the same as the body? What is consciousness? Can machines have it?

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bahman
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Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:09 pm

This is the result of two arguments: (1) Free agent cannot be created and (2) Something which cannot be created cannot be annihilated. The first argument is discussed in here. The second argument is discussed in here.

seeds
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by seeds » Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:37 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:09 pm
This is the result of two arguments: (1) Free agent cannot be created and (2) Something which cannot be created cannot be annihilated. The first argument is discussed in here. The second argument is discussed in here.
bahman, before I can address the topic of this thread, would you please clear something up for me?

In your thread “Free agent cannot be created,” you stated the following:
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:05 am
You cannot cause/create something which is free.
Taking a hypothetical approach to this issue, let’s assume that God truly does exist.

In which case, would you consider God as being a “free agent”?

Yes or no?
_______

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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:40 pm

seeds wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 11:37 pm
bahman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:09 pm
This is the result of two arguments: (1) Free agent cannot be created and (2) Something which cannot be created cannot be annihilated. The first argument is discussed in here. The second argument is discussed in here.
bahman, before I can address the topic of this thread, would you please clear something up for me?

In your thread “Free agent cannot be created,” you stated the following:
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:05 am
You cannot cause/create something which is free.
Taking a hypothetical approach to this issue, let’s assume that God truly does exist.

In which case, would you consider God as being a “free agent”?

Yes or no?
_______
It depends if you God is pure actuality or not. The state of decision is a potentiality. Therefore I have no proof for God to be eternal if He cannot decide.

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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by Age » Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:56 pm

bahman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:09 pm
This is the result of two arguments: (1) Free agent cannot be created and (2) Something which cannot be created cannot be annihilated. The first argument is discussed in here. The second argument is discussed in here.
Just to be clear; Is this the one and only 'Mind' that is eternal? Or, Is it each and EVERY one of the at least two 'minds' that is eternal?

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 3:32 pm

Age wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:56 pm
bahman wrote:
Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:09 pm
This is the result of two arguments: (1) Free agent cannot be created and (2) Something which cannot be created cannot be annihilated. The first argument is discussed in here. The second argument is discussed in here.
Just to be clear; Is this the one and only 'Mind' that is eternal? Or, Is it each and EVERY one of the at least two 'minds' that is eternal?
Mind in general, with the main ability to freely decide.

seeds
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by seeds » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:08 pm

bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:40 pm
It depends if you God is pure actuality or not. The state of decision is a potentiality. Therefore I have no proof for God to be eternal if He cannot decide.
The “hypothetical” God I am speaking of is the one typically envisioned by those of most monotheistic religions (especially the Abrahamic ones).

It would not only be capable of making all of the decisions necessary for creating all of the phenomenal features of the universe, but it would also be conscious, self-aware, and eternal.

In which case (and again), would you consider it as being a “free agent”?
_______

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:10 pm

seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:08 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:40 pm
It depends if you God is pure actuality or not. The state of decision is a potentiality. Therefore I have no proof for God to be eternal if He cannot decide.
The “hypothetical” God I am speaking of is the one typically envisioned by those of most monotheistic religions (especially the Abrahamic ones).

It would not only be capable of making all of the decisions necessary for creating all of the phenomenal features of the universe, but it would also be conscious, self-aware, and eternal.

In which case (and again), would you consider it as being a “free agent”?
_______
Sure, given your definition.

seeds
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by seeds » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:00 pm

seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:08 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:40 pm
It depends if you God is pure actuality or not. The state of decision is a potentiality. Therefore I have no proof for God to be eternal if He cannot decide.
The “hypothetical” God I am speaking of is the one typically envisioned by those of most monotheistic religions (especially the Abrahamic ones).

It would not only be capable of making all of the decisions necessary for creating all of the phenomenal features of the universe, but it would also be conscious, self-aware, and eternal.

In which case (and again), would you consider it as being a “free agent”?
_______
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:10 pm
Sure, given your definition.
Okay, good.

Then let’s review your reasons for why a free agent cannot be created:
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 am
1) Causation requires knowledge
2) Knowledge is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
What if our hypothetically existent God was in possession of all of the structured knowledge necessary for fully and completely replicating itself?

Wouldn’t each of the living, self-aware replications of the original “free agent”...

(replications that are in possession of the exact same attributes and capabilities as the original)

...again, wouldn’t each of the (caused and structured) replications be free agents themselves? - thus refuting your conclusion in point number 5?
_______

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:21 pm

seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:00 pm
seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:08 pm
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 2:40 pm
It depends if you God is pure actuality or not. The state of decision is a potentiality. Therefore I have no proof for God to be eternal if He cannot decide.
The “hypothetical” God I am speaking of is the one typically envisioned by those of most monotheistic religions (especially the Abrahamic ones).

It would not only be capable of making all of the decisions necessary for creating all of the phenomenal features of the universe, but it would also be conscious, self-aware, and eternal.

In which case (and again), would you consider it as being a “free agent”?
_______
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 7:10 pm
Sure, given your definition.
Okay, good.

Then let’s review your reasons for why a free agent cannot be created:
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 am
1) Causation requires knowledge
2) Knowledge is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
What if our hypothetically existent God was in possession of all of the structured knowledge necessary for fully and completely replicating itself?
No. He cannot.
seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:00 pm
Wouldn’t each of the living, self-aware replications of the original “free agent”...

(replications that are in possession of the exact same attributes and capabilities as the original)

...again, wouldn’t each of the (caused and structured) replications be free agents themselves? - thus refuting your conclusion in point number 5?
_______
(5) is the result of (3) and (4). So you need to refute (3) or (4) in order to refute (5). I guess that you don't have any problem with (3) therefore what is left is (4). Why (4) is true? Because the behavior of anything which is structured is a function of behavior of parts, parts being irreducible. Why? Because we don’t have anything but the parts. Therefore anything which is structured cannot be free (unless parts are free but that again require the creation of something which is free so we are back to the point (1)).

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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by seeds » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:16 pm

seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:00 pm
What if our hypothetically existent God was in possession of all of the structured knowledge necessary for fully and completely replicating itself?
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:21 pm
No. He cannot.
Nonsense!

Allegedly...

(aside from not being able to create square circles or anything similar)

...there is absolutely nothing that the hypothetical God of the monotheistic religions cannot do, which includes replicating itself if it wanted to do so.

Therefore, it is quite clear that for the sheer sake of trying to win your argument, you have arbitrarily placed a limit on God’s capabilities.

From where did you gain the understanding and authority to do such a thing?
_______

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:50 pm

seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:16 pm
seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:00 pm
What if our hypothetically existent God was in possession of all of the structured knowledge necessary for fully and completely replicating itself?
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:21 pm
No. He cannot.
Nonsense!

Allegedly...

(aside from not being able to create square circles or anything similar)

...there is absolutely nothing that the hypothetical God of the monotheistic religions cannot do, which includes replicating itself if it wanted to do so.

Therefore, it is quite clear that for the sheer sake of trying to win your argument, you have arbitrarily placed a limit on God’s capabilities.

From where did you gain the understanding and authority to do such a thing?
_______
From my argument. Do you have problem with it? Which part?

seeds
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by seeds » Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:39 pm

seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:16 pm
seeds wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:00 pm
What if our hypothetically existent God was in possession of all of the structured knowledge necessary for fully and completely replicating itself?
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 8:21 pm
No. He cannot.
Nonsense!

Allegedly...

(aside from not being able to create square circles or anything similar)

...there is absolutely nothing that the hypothetical God of the monotheistic religions cannot do, which includes replicating itself if it wanted to do so.

Therefore, it is quite clear that for the sheer sake of trying to win your argument, you have arbitrarily placed a limit on God’s capabilities.

From where did you gain the understanding and authority to do such a thing?
_______
bahman wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:50 pm
From my argument. Do you have problem with it? Which part?
Your argument is constructed to support your personal assumption of why a “free agent cannot be created.”

However, I have given you a hypothetical scenario wherein God...

(a Being that you agreed is a “free agent” under the terms that I laid-out)

...is able to replicate itself, thus causing a new free agent (just like God) to come into existence.

In other words, with specific and structured knowledge (as is possessed by God), a free agent can indeed be created.

Therefore, your argument is thus refuted, period, full-stop.
_______

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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by -1- » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:34 am

bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 am
1) Causation requires knowledge
2) Knowledge is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
Seeds, replication is not a possibility for a free agent (according to the above) because "any caused thing is structured", and anything that is structured cannot be free. So the alleged god is either structured, in which case it can't be free, or it's free, but then it is not structured as per the above; therefore god has no knowledge, therefore it can't create anything.

(A) God is not structured: (3 and 4) or else god is not free (4)

According to the above 1 through five, god either lacks the know-how (since it has no knowledge) or it lacks the freedom (since it is structured).

So, at any rate, this god of Bahman's can't reproduce, can't create, because it needs both knowledge and freedom at the same time and in the same respect to do so, and either it can have freedom, (as per the above 5 points) or else it can have knowledge (as per the same points) but NOT BOTH at the same time and in the same respect, because according to the above, anything that has knowledge is structured, therefore it is not free, and anything that is free, is not structured, therefore it has no knowledge.

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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by -1- » Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:39 am

There are other problems with the definitions / hypotheses that form the basis of Bahman's argument. However, there is no need to worry about them, since according to the Bahman, the Creator was completely and irrefutably argued out of His potential to create anything.

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bahman
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Re: Mind is eternal

Post by bahman » Tue Jan 08, 2019 2:36 pm

-1- wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:34 am
bahman wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 6:46 am
1) Causation requires knowledge
2) Knowledge is structured
3) Therefore any caused thing is structured
4) Anything which is structured cannot be free
5) Therefore one cannot cause a thing which is free
Seeds, replication is not a possibility for a free agent (according to the above) because "any caused thing is structured", and anything that is structured cannot be free. So the alleged god is either structured, in which case it can't be free, or it's free, but then it is not structured as per the above; therefore god has no knowledge, therefore it can't create anything.

(A) God is not structured: (3 and 4) or else god is not free (4)

According to the above 1 through five, god either lacks the know-how (since it has no knowledge) or it lacks the freedom (since it is structured).

So, at any rate, this god of Bahman's can't reproduce, can't create, because it needs both knowledge and freedom at the same time and in the same respect to do so, and either it can have freedom, (as per the above 5 points) or else it can have knowledge (as per the same points) but NOT BOTH at the same time and in the same respect, because according to the above, anything that has knowledge is structured, therefore it is not free, and anything that is free, is not structured, therefore it has no knowledge.
You almost got it all. Congratulation. The only thing that you missed is that a being is made of many minds so it could have knowledge. One mind however, which is the basic element of reality cannot have knowledge.

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