Lawrence Krauss

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Gary Childress
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Gary Childress » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:50 am

Frank N Stein wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:38 am
Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:03 am
https://www.chronicle.com/article/3-Rev ... the/244887

Judging from this article, the most serious thing I see here is the groping. The other stuff (others witnessing him and a colleague apparently kissing consensually and "sexual comments") doesn't seem all that serious to me. The groping seems to be two incidents (a hand on a breast in one and a hand on an inner thigh in the other), and it's difficult to tell but they both appear to have happened at after lecture "receptions" (a.k.a parties). So I'm not sure if "workplace harassment" applies or not.

I mean, all they need to do now is send investigative reporters to infiltrate and stake out Club Med and they could probably bag every prominent human being in the World (females probably included) for something which someone out there thinks ought not be done between two human beings and their bodies. Heck, the reporters themselves would probably get busted in the process...
They appear to be mixing up 'incidents'. The 'galaxy' (actually the Solar System) was on a woman's arm, and the alleged perpetrator was Neil de Grasse Tyson. So much for 'quality journalism'. The 'thigh' incident was Lawrence Krauss, with no galaxy in attendance (or was there?). A solar system on an arm, and a galaxy on a dress? No wonder these men are completely losing control of themselves :roll:
Holy shit! They are going after Tyson also! When metoo women get done with us, the only people left standing in our society will be hip hop musicians and heavy metal heads. We'll all be dumber than rocks!

Frank N Stein
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Frank N Stein » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:06 am

Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:50 am
Frank N Stein wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:38 am
Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:03 am
https://www.chronicle.com/article/3-Rev ... the/244887

Judging from this article, the most serious thing I see here is the groping. The other stuff (others witnessing him and a colleague apparently kissing consensually and "sexual comments") doesn't seem all that serious to me. The groping seems to be two incidents (a hand on a breast in one and a hand on an inner thigh in the other), and it's difficult to tell but they both appear to have happened at after lecture "receptions" (a.k.a parties). So I'm not sure if "workplace harassment" applies or not.

I mean, all they need to do now is send investigative reporters to infiltrate and stake out Club Med and they could probably bag every prominent human being in the World (females probably included) for something which someone out there thinks ought not be done between two human beings and their bodies. Heck, the reporters themselves would probably get busted in the process...
They appear to be mixing up 'incidents'. The 'galaxy' (actually the Solar System) was on a woman's arm, and the alleged perpetrator was Neil de Grasse Tyson. So much for 'quality journalism'. The 'thigh' incident was Lawrence Krauss, with no galaxy in attendance (or was there?). A solar system on an arm, and a galaxy on a dress? No wonder these men are completely losing control of themselves :roll:
Holy shit! They are going after Tyson also! When metoo women get done with us, the only people left standing in our society will be hip hop musicians and heavy metal heads. We'll all be dumber than rocks!
:lol: I think that's the idea.

Frank N Stein
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Frank N Stein » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:17 am

I wonder what they have to say about JF Kennedy, the notorious womaniser who along with his brother possibly drove Marilyn Monroe to suicide. If we keep confusing professional personas with private lives then humankind is going to come to a dead end, with nothing getting done.
If I like a politician it's because I like their politics and the decisions they make regarding my country. I couldn't give a flying rat's ass how many women they bed or try to bed. I would if I were married to them, but other than that it's none of my damn business. Leaders are generally priks (that's a given), but some have decent politics. It's not the same as a Ted Haggard, who publicly took the moral high ground, demonising gays while privately utilizing rent-boys and drug dealers.

fooloso4
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by fooloso4 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:25 pm

Frank N Stein wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:07 am
fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:46 am
Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 3:41 am

Now I see careers ruined over sexual improprieties which some go into an absolute FRENZY over.

Yes, there is some overreaction but there is in response there are some who irrationality assume that all allegations must be false, that it is nothing more than mass hysteria. It think it is reasonable to assume the some allegations are true, some are in a grey area, and some are false. As I have said since the beginning of this thread each case should be examined on its own merits.
Which allegations do you think are true, which are false, and what do you think the punishment should be for the ones that you think are true? How have you come to your conclusions?
It is simple statistics that hold for a wide variety of allegations. Some people will have done what they are accused of and some will not.

fooloso4
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by fooloso4 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:51 pm

Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:03 am
https://www.chronicle.com/article/3-Rev ... the/244887

Judging from this article, the most serious thing I see here is the groping. The other stuff (others witnessing him and a colleague apparently kissing consensually and "sexual comments") doesn't seem all that serious to me. The groping seems to be two incidents (a hand on a breast in one and a hand on an inner thigh in the other), and it's difficult to tell but they both appear to have happened at after lecture "receptions" (a.k.a parties). So I'm not sure if "workplace harassment" applies or not.

I mean, all they need to do now is send investigative reporters to infiltrate and stake out Club Med and they could probably bag every prominent human being in the World (females probably included) for something which someone out there thinks ought not be done between two human beings and their bodies. Heck, the reporters themselves would probably get busted in the process...
Did you read the article I posted: https://medium.com/@philosophytorres/he ... c444b2d715? There are several other allegations that have not been made public. The fact of the matter is that neither of us know the extent of it. Since the university paid for Krauss to attend the lecture they consider this to be within his official capacity as an employee of the university.

Krauss was a member of the University of the University of Arizona faculty. I do not know what goes on at Club Med. What may be appropriate behavior at Club Med may not what may be appropriate for a university professor in his official capacity. If he wants to go to Club Med on his own time that is his business. What takes place between consenting adults at Club Med is their business. It is this last point that seems to get lost.

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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Gary Childress » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:01 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:51 pm
Did you read the article I posted: https://medium.com/@philosophytorres/he ... c444b2d715? There are several other allegations that have not been made public. The fact of the matter is that neither of us know the extent of it. Since the university paid for Krauss to attend the lecture they consider this to be within his official capacity as an employee of the university.
The article you linked to doesn't seem to add any new incidents which weren't covered in the categories of the one I linked to and was discussing. Basically it seems to say what we already know, that Krauss seems to be pretty overt about sexual matters in the company of others around him. The question I have is what exactly are the nature of his "crimes". So far I don't see anything extraordinarily damaging to anyone. As I said, the worst seems to be two incidents of groping--incidents where he actually crossed the line from his own body onto that of another human body--non-violent behavior essentially--but whatever. The rest of the incidents are mostly "what he said or what I saw him do offended my sensibilities". So the guy is now banned or ostracized from all these groups and institutions mentioned in the article you cited above for copping a feel on at least two occasions (maybe more). Case closed I guess.

Frank N Stein
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Frank N Stein » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:30 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:25 pm
Frank N Stein wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:07 am
fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:46 am



Yes, there is some overreaction but there is in response there are some who irrationality assume that all allegations must be false, that it is nothing more than mass hysteria. It think it is reasonable to assume the some allegations are true, some are in a grey area, and some are false. As I have said since the beginning of this thread each case should be examined on its own merits.
Which allegations do you think are true, which are false, and what do you think the punishment should be for the ones that you think are true? How have you come to your conclusions?
It is simple statistics that hold for a wide variety of allegations. Some people will have done what they are accused of and some will not.
Is this a joke?

Frank N Stein
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Frank N Stein » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:39 pm

Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:01 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:51 pm
Did you read the article I posted: https://medium.com/@philosophytorres/he ... c444b2d715? There are several other allegations that have not been made public. The fact of the matter is that neither of us know the extent of it. Since the university paid for Krauss to attend the lecture they consider this to be within his official capacity as an employee of the university.
The article you linked to doesn't seem to add any new incidents which weren't covered in the categories of the one I linked to and was discussing. Basically it seems to say what we already know, that Krauss seems to be pretty overt about sexual matters in the company of others around him. The question I have is what exactly are the nature of his "crimes". So far I don't see anything extraordinarily damaging to anyone. As I said, the worst seems to be two incidents of groping--incidents where he actually crossed the line from his own body onto that of another human body--non-violent behavior essentially--but whatever. The rest of the incidents are mostly "what he said or what I saw him do offended my sensibilities". So the guy is now banned or ostracized from all these groups and institutions mentioned in the article you cited above for copping a feel on at least two occasions (maybe more). Case closed I guess.
He's committted no crime. If he had then the police would be involved (and I don't mean the thought police).
Lawrence Krauss is one of the greatest science educators in the world. He is being silenced because of what? Not being handsome enough to get away with being an outrageous flirt?
You are right. The population will soon be as 'dumb as rocks' i. e. as dumb as those dumb women who were too dumb to say something at the time, but feel quite comfortable destroying a much better person's career and probably life.

fooloso4
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by fooloso4 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:53 pm

Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:01 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:51 pm
Did you read the article I posted: https://medium.com/@philosophytorres/he ... c444b2d715? There are several other allegations that have not been made public. The fact of the matter is that neither of us know the extent of it. Since the university paid for Krauss to attend the lecture they consider this to be within his official capacity as an employee of the university.
The article you linked to doesn't seem to add any new incidents which weren't covered in the categories of the one I linked to and was discussing. Basically it seems to say what we already know, that Krauss seems to be pretty overt about sexual matters in the company of others around him. The question I have is what exactly are the nature of his "crimes". So far I don't see anything extraordinarily damaging to anyone. As I said, the worst seems to be two incidents of groping--incidents where he actually crossed the line from his own body onto that of another human body--non-violent behavior essentially--but whatever. The rest of the incidents are mostly "what he said or what I saw him do offended my sensibilities". So the guy is now banned or ostracized from all these groups and institutions mentioned in the article you cited above for copping a feel on at least two occasions (maybe more). Case closed I guess.
The article you linked to doesn't seem to add any new incidents which weren't covered in the categories of the one I linked to and was discussing.
It makes it clear that there is more to what was going on than we know. The rush to judgment occurs on both sides. The hysteria exists on both sides. It makes absolutely no sense to conclude that since some have gone too far in making accusations that Krauss must be innocent of all wrong doing. Whether he is or not has nothing to do with the Me Too movement or any allegations made against anyone else. I would think that this is pretty straight forward but based on the hyperbolic rhetoric based on a few stories in the news men are becoming an endangered species and sex will be outlawed.

So far I don't see anything extraordinarily damaging to anyone.
Isn't this like shrugging if someone steals from you? It may not be "extraordinarily damaging". You might still have money in the bank and other assets.
The rest of the incidents are mostly "what he said or what I saw him do offended my sensibilities".
Universities and other institutions have policies in place regarding workplace behavior, which includes speech acts. Whether someone's sensibilities are offended or not is besides the point. Professional organizations are no longer men's clubs. What once was considered acceptable behavior between men may not be acceptable behavior by the standards of a community that includes significant numbers of women. By the old rules how long do you think a man's behavior would be tolerated if he made sexual advances on other men?

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Gary Childress
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Gary Childress » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:30 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:53 pm
Universities and other institutions have policies in place regarding workplace behavior, which includes speech acts. Whether someone's sensibilities are offended or not is besides the point.
Sounds like virtual utopia.
Last edited by Gary Childress on Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Frank N Stein
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Frank N Stein » Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:31 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:53 pm
Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:01 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 1:51 pm
Did you read the article I posted: https://medium.com/@philosophytorres/he ... c444b2d715? There are several other allegations that have not been made public. The fact of the matter is that neither of us know the extent of it. Since the university paid for Krauss to attend the lecture they consider this to be within his official capacity as an employee of the university.
The article you linked to doesn't seem to add any new incidents which weren't covered in the categories of the one I linked to and was discussing. Basically it seems to say what we already know, that Krauss seems to be pretty overt about sexual matters in the company of others around him. The question I have is what exactly are the nature of his "crimes". So far I don't see anything extraordinarily damaging to anyone. As I said, the worst seems to be two incidents of groping--incidents where he actually crossed the line from his own body onto that of another human body--non-violent behavior essentially--but whatever. The rest of the incidents are mostly "what he said or what I saw him do offended my sensibilities". So the guy is now banned or ostracized from all these groups and institutions mentioned in the article you cited above for copping a feel on at least two occasions (maybe more). Case closed I guess.
The article you linked to doesn't seem to add any new incidents which weren't covered in the categories of the one I linked to and was discussing.
It makes it clear that there is more to what was going on than we know. The rush to judgment occurs on both sides. The hysteria exists on both sides. It makes absolutely no sense to conclude that since some have gone too far in making accusations that Krauss must be innocent of all wrong doing. Whether he is or not has nothing to do with the Me Too movement or any allegations made against anyone else. I would think that this is pretty straight forward but based on the hyperbolic rhetoric based on a few stories in the news men are becoming an endangered species and sex will be outlawed.

So far I don't see anything extraordinarily damaging to anyone.
Isn't this like shrugging if someone steals from you? It may not be "extraordinarily damaging". You might still have money in the bank and other assets.
The rest of the incidents are mostly "what he said or what I saw him do offended my sensibilities".
Universities and other institutions have policies in place regarding workplace behavior, which includes speech acts. Whether someone's sensibilities are offended or not is besides the point. Professional organizations are no longer men's clubs. What once was considered acceptable behavior between men may not be acceptable behavior by the standards of a community that includes significant numbers of women. By the old rules how long do you think a man's behavior would be tolerated if he made sexual advances on other men?
There is definitely 'more to what's going on' but not in the sense you mean. You ignore others' points yet keep posting comments that are almost identical to each other. Once would have been sufficient, with all due respect.

fooloso4
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by fooloso4 » Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:19 pm

Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:30 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:53 pm
Universities and other institutions have policies in place regarding workplace behavior, which includes speech acts. Whether someone's sensibilities are offended or not is besides the point.
Sounds like virtual utopia.
It is actually the reality in all institutions with more than a handful of employees. Whether management likes it or not, it is the law.

Frank N Stein
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Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:03 am

Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Frank N Stein » Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:52 pm

fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:19 pm
Gary Childress wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 7:30 pm
fooloso4 wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 6:53 pm
Universities and other institutions have policies in place regarding workplace behavior, which includes speech acts. Whether someone's sensibilities are offended or not is besides the point.
Sounds like virtual utopia.
It is actually the reality in all institutions with more than a handful of employees. Whether management likes it or not, it is the law.
Bob the butt-pinching accountant doesn't as a rule have international speaking engagements to cancel, or get 'investigated' by 'Buzzfeed'. And why not, you might well ask? Bob the accountant isn't going to increase 'views'.
Sam Harris made a good point; that allegations of 'sexual misconduct' should be scaled on a continuum.
Terms like 'inappropriate behavior' and 'sexual misconduct' are vague (and deliberately so). Being inept at flirting or socially awkward can be interpreted as creepy, but it definitely is not the same as rape or sexual assault.
How dare anyone say that a vicious and terrifying rape is worse than being pinched on the butt. How misogynistic. Both are violations of sacred goddesshood! (That's not hyperbole. I've seen and heard comments like that many times on Youtube and other social media).
So, being a nerdy professor is fine as long as your nerdiness doesn't include being an inept flirt, and 'inappropriate behavior' applies only to those you don't happen to find attractive or, if you do find them attractive, then someone who has rejected you in the past.

Walker
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Re: Lawrence Krauss

Post by Walker » Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:14 pm

Frank N Stein wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 9:52 pm
So, being a nerdy professor is fine as long as your nerdiness doesn't include being an inept flirt, and 'inappropriate behavior' applies only to those you don't happen to find attractive or, if you do find them attractive, then someone who has rejected you in the past.
Work situation:

It was a shift change (operations, not medical) and there were about six of us in a crowded room, which is where the necessary information and people were. We were in the center of the room at a high table. Other people were around the perimeter, some involved in the talking, others just doing the ongoing work for that space.

I was focused on what I was reading and turned to do an about face, in place. I didn’t see the woman but she was close to me, walking past, and when I turned I was swinging my arm up to reach for some papers. She stepped within the arc of my swinging hand and to my horror, my open palm slapped her firmly on the butt, like I was spanking her. Solid contact, rather firm. It made a distinct, padded slapping noise, sort of muted and muffled. Total accident, the contact came before I even saw her.

I knew her through work only, mostly on the phone.

She was still facing away from me and I thought, it's curtains. When she turned I saw that her face was angry.

Then she saw it was me. Her whole face changed. She smiled and kept smiling through my apologies. An accident? It sounded thin even to my ears, but that’s the way it happened. Now she was standing in my space. She wasn’t upset, she wasn't moving. She was turned on by the surprise. She could have turned it into something, she could have turned it anyway she wanted, but she didn’t. She let it go. I figure it was either because I was prettier back then, or I was the ranking boss in the room. Lucky me.

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